Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[W. K. Lis]

They could have used the delays with Line 5 (above the tunnels) and put in platform screen doors in the meantime. With the Ontario Line, can see the bean counters deciding that to reduce costs, the platform doors will have to go.

 

[Northern Light]

Excellent post from @ADRM with the renders, thought I might add a couple of close-ups/zooms of the train interior shots:

I like the retention of transverse seats.

I like the bicycle spots.

The choice to go with some superlong bench segments I'm a bit more iffy on.

I don't much care for the lighting. Its not terrible, but we could do better.

 

[TossYourJacket]

They could have used the delays with Line 5 (above the tunnels) and put in platform screen doors in the meantime. With the Ontario Line, can see the bean counters deciding that to reduce costs, the platform doors will have to go.

They can't run 90 second headways without the doors. No way will they get cut. Just because they stupidly didn't include them on Line 5, doesn't mean anything about what happens on the OL. The doors ultimately won't be that expensive, especially since they can make them part of the station structure (which will save costs over having larger areas without any structural supports). Implementing them on a line not designed for them is more expensive than just including them in the design. There are way more things I'd expect to see cut on the OL before the platform doors.

 

[MisterF]

Someone please pinch me so I know this is real and not a dream that Ford was able to pull this off somehow. Out of all people Ford.

To be fair, the Ontario line builds on years of work done for the Relief line. The Relief line would have been under construction by now if it had been allowed to continue. And planning for the second phase, likely to Sheppard, was well underway. Ford isn't doing anything that the city and previous provincial government weren't already doing.

 

[adys123]

To be fair, the Ontario line builds on years of work done for the Relief line. The Relief line would have been under construction by now if it had been allowed to continue. And planning for the second phase, likely to Sheppard, was well underway. Ford isn't doing anything that the city and previous provincial government weren't already doing.

This is definitely true, the only credit Ford should get is for the Building Transit Faster Act and giving his approval for the project scope change.

 

[toronto647]

This is definitely true, the only credit Ford should get is for the Building Transit Faster Act and giving his approval for the project scope change.

There has been a plan for the last several decades if not more than a centennial. Every government was "close" to starting. How would they have started? They had no funding what so ever and if Ford wouldn't have put new legislation in then there is no way OL would be this far down the pipeline. It is one thing having a plan and a whole new ball game actually building it. Ford got it done and all due credit is due to him.

 

[innsertnamehere]

To be fair, the Ontario line builds on years of work done for the Relief line. The Relief line would have been under construction by now if it had been allowed to continue. And planning for the second phase, likely to Sheppard, was well underway. Ford isn't doing anything that the city and previous provincial government weren't already doing.

disagree - Ford brought it back to the drawing board to a certain extent but completely changed the project into something which is actually a much better project overall. The western part of the line to Exhibition wasn't on anyones radar and is actually a very critical part of the project in my opinion, and the change in alignment and technology has been hugely critical in saving billions of dollars of costs and creating a much better project.

Plus, as others have said, the Ford changes resulted in maybe a year's total delay to opening but will result in a substantially better project at minimal additional cost. The future extension to Sheppard can now be done elevated as well, which will save billions too.

Also - unlike previous governments, Ford actually got it to construction start. And not just this project - all four of his subway projects are moving at break-neck speeds compared to the Liberal's transit programs (announce something, wait a decade, then maybe start construction). The Liberals had, what, 15 years in power and in that time managed to start construction on one subway extension and the crosstown. Ford is 4 years into his government and has 2 LRTs and 3 subway lines under construction.

Ford has a lot of problematic policies, his infrastructure spending targets aren't one of them. And as much as people mash their teeth about Ford skipping over environmental reviews, those streamlinings are actually enabling projects to happen in less than a generation.

 

[MisterF]

disagree - Ford brought it back to the drawing board to a certain extent but completely changed the project into something which is actually a much better project overall. The western part of the line to Exhibition wasn't on anyones radar and is actually a very critical part of the project in my opinion, and the change in alignment and technology has been hugely critical in saving billions of dollars of costs and creating a much better project.

Plus, as others have said, the Ford changes resulted in maybe a year's total delay to opening but will result in a substantially better project at minimal additional cost. The future extension to Sheppard can now be done elevated as well, which will save billions too.

Also - unlike previous governments, Ford actually got it to construction start. And not just this project - all four of his subway projects are moving at break-neck speeds compared to the Liberal's transit programs (announce something, wait a decade, then maybe start construction). The Liberals had, what, 15 years in power and in that time managed to start construction on one subway extension and the crosstown. Ford is 4 years into his government and has 2 LRTs and 3 subway lines under construction.

Ford has a lot of problematic policies, his infrastructure spending targets aren't one of them. And as much as people mash their teeth about Ford skipping over environmental reviews, those streamlinings are actually enabling projects to happen in less than a generation.

The current project goes farther west but not as far north (with phase 2, which Ford cancelled). Which is better isn't nearly as cut and dry as you suggest. The relief line work was moving at breakneck speed as well, after decades of dormancy.

Don't forget that the previous government got a lot of transit under construction as well, like the Crosstown, UPX, line 1 extension, and GO upgrades for example. And they laid the groundwork for basically all of the transit expansion happening today.

No one party or premier can take full credit for most big transit projects.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The current project goes farther west but not as far north (with phase 2, which Ford cancelled). Which is better isn't nearly as cut and dry as you suggest. The relief line work was moving at breakneck speed as well, after decades of dormancy.

Don't forget that the previous government got a lot of transit under construction as well, like the Crosstown, UPX, line 1 extension, and GO upgrades for example. And they laid the groundwork for basically all of the transit expansion happening today.

No one party or premier can take full credit for most big transit projects.

to be clear it goes both further north and west than the previous project.

The Relief line went from University to the Danforth, that's it. The city had some preliminary thoughts about an eventual northern extension to Sheppard.. but they were just that, thoughts. There was no real project there at all. If given time it eventually would have turned into a project, but likely not one which would have been completed for decades.

Yes - the Liberals are largely responsible for Finch West and Hurontario, as well as getting GO RER started. But we all know that the Liberals decided to take 11 years to start construction on Finch W. And ultimately, the Liberal's problem was they were excellent at planning projects, yet suspiciously little of it got to construction. Promise something for a decade+ with no real action.. same thing the Federal liberals are doing by dragging out Via HFR right now.

The liberals studied lots of projects, no doubt. But ultimately, in their 15 years, they have a subway extension to an industrial park to Vaughan, an over-priced diesel train to the airport, a trickling of minor GO transit service improvements, and a poorly designed, overpriced,, much delayed LRT line on Eglinton to show for it. Studies don't matter if it isn't built.

 

[felix123]

The current project goes farther west but not as far north (with phase 2, which Ford cancelled). Which is better isn't nearly as cut and dry as you suggest. The relief line work was moving at breakneck speed as well, after decades of dormancy.

Don't forget that the previous government got a lot of transit under construction as well, like the Crosstown, UPX, line 1 extension, and GO upgrades for example. And they laid the groundwork for basically all of the transit expansion happening today.

No one party or premier can take full credit for most big transit projects.

Absolutely, the OL delayed the RL, which was moving ahead quickly.
I am happy we are getting the line eventually, but to the forumers simping for Ford, it shouldn't be because of this project.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Glad to see there are now vehicle interior renderings. I just wish it wasn’t so space aged 80’s (eg. Star Trek, Star Wars etc.), at least thats the feeling I’m getting from the images and all that chunky grey plastic. Something like Montreal’s AZUR train interior would be nice.

Looking at this and the LRT vehicles, seems like Metrolinks prefers to keep the modern business aesthetic vehicle interiors to GO transit.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Absolutely, the OL delayed the RL, which was moving ahead quickly.

which option would you take:
1. $7 billion line, running from downtown to pape, ~7km, opening in 2029. *Maybe* you might get another $6-7 billion extension to Sheppard in another decade, if you are lucky. hope you don't live or work on the west end of downtown.
2. $11 billion line, running from the west end to Eglinton, ~15km, opening 12 months later.

The City's relief line was a bit further ahead, but it as a bloated, poorly designed line, and ultimately those extra 12 months are going to result in a line which works a lot better for it's users for a much longer time.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Does the Ontario Line going in the Lakeshore rail corridor prevent GO from having more frequent service in the future? Or is 4 tracks enough for a long time?

 

[Northern Light]

which option would you take:
1. $7 billion line, running from downtown to pape, ~7km, opening in 2029. *Maybe* you might get another $6-7 billion extension to Sheppard in another decade, if you are lucky. hope you don't live or work on the west end of downtown.
2. $11 billion line, running from the west end to Eglinton, ~15km, opening 12 months later.

The City's relief line was a bit further ahead, but it as a bloated, poorly designed line, and ultimately those extra 12 months are going to result in a line which works a lot better for it's users for a much longer time.

For clarity, the O/L is unlikely to open by December 2030; its always possible, but that's certainly optimistic.

Also, the largest chunk of 'savings' in overlapping segments of the O/L and Relief Line aren't from any changes in alignment, they are from smaller stations and lower capacity rolling stock.

I don't think we need to, and I will not re litigate the whole question of which project design is better and why; but I will make the case that you are awarding credit for achievement that isn't really merited.

Segment for segment, if one chose to go with the reduced capacity model, you could have built the R/L (meaning same alignment) and easily afforded the extension to Eglinton.

***

Alternatively, based on the R/L's unit cost, had you bloated the budget by 4B, or roughly 57%, allowing for fixed costs etc, you certainly could have achieved a 65% increase in length and stations. That gets you at least 11.5km of length.

And that is also if you believe the O/L budget holds.

Ford didn't deliver any miracle or panacea, he delivered delay, much consternation, and reduced capacity with, yes, an advancement of future extensions by a few years.

 

[innsertnamehere]

For clarity, the O/L is unlikely to open by December 2030; its always possible, but that's certainly optimistic.

Also, the largest chunk of 'savings' in overlapping segments of the O/L an d Relief Line aren't from any changes in alignment, they are from smaller stations and lower capacity rolling stock.

I don't think we need to, and I will not re litigate the whole question of which project design is better and why; but I will make the case that you are awarding credit for achievement that isn't really merited.

Segment for segment, if one chose to go with the reduced capacity model, you could have built the R/L (meaning same alignment) and easily afforded the extension to Eglinton.

***

Alternatively, based on the R/L's unit cost, had you bloated the budget by 4B, or roughly 57%, allowing for fixed costs etc, you certainly could have achieved a 65% increase in length and stations. That gets you at least 11.5km of length.

And that is also if you believe the O/L budget holds.

Ford didn't deliver any miracle or panacea, he delivered delay, much consternation, and reduced capacity with, yes, an advancement of future extensions by a few years.

A reduced capacity of about 10%, it's not massive. The OL has more capacity than the existing subway as well - it's not some low capacity line.

Some of the savings are from the technology change, yes, but most of it actually come from surfacing the line along the Lakeshore Corridor and elevating it further north and at Exhibition. The alignment went from around ~7km of tunnels to ~4.5km of tunnels to get from Queen and University to the Danforth, a ~35% reduction. The entire OL line only has about 8.5km of tunnels on it's 15km corridor length, and that's where it really saves on costs.

The technology change is a big reason the line makes so much sense anyway as it is what enables a lot of things like shallower stations, surfacing along the Lakeshore corridor, etc., and still provides roughly 2x the capacity of projected demand on the line.

Make no mistake, the OL is not some brainchild of Ford himself.. I somehow doubt he's a transit aficionado looking to make innovative changes to subway system designs. I suspect the OL was pitched to Ford by Metrolinx, which had previously published similar ideas (i.e. a subway connection from downtown to Exhibition to take pressure off of Union Station for the GO system). Ford simply backed that decision, which I think was the right one in the end.

He's also making stupid mistakes elsewhere, like burying Eglinton West.. But I think people are right to give him credit for genuinely pushing these projects forward as quickly as possible. There is a clear eagerness for his government to get major infrastructure projects actually underway ASAP, unlike the Liberals.