Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

syn said:
Are all people in Leslieville uninformed? I'd say many of them are quite informed, which is why it's hard to accept the previously approved plan was being shelved under the guise of cost savings when the government is spending billions upon billions to bury transit in suburban areas of the city.

Telling people what you're going to do and not giving them any say is not listening to feedback. The previous plan was built in cooperation with local stakeholders. This plan was not.

Metrolinx should've handled this properly in the first place. Poor management is entirely on them.
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Many are informed, but informed to only accept that subways are the way to go or bust. They are informed that elevated rail is the bane of society and their Suburban homes. What they aren't informed is that there alternative that are very aesthetically and functionally pleasing. Not to mention will save them much more come tax season.
 
cplchanb said:
Many are informed, but informed to only accept that subways are the way to go or bust. They are informed that elevated rail is the bane of society and their Suburban homes. What they aren't informed is that there alternative that are very aesthetically and functionally pleasing. Not to mention will save them much more come tax season.
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The irony is that the government has spent many years (as you pointed out) telling people that above ground transit is for second class citizens, and that those in the suburbs 'deserve' subways. Now they're spending billions to reinforce that idea on suburban projects.

Leslieville isn't the suburbs. I don't agree with them on everything, but they went from an underground extension quite far along in the planning process to something completely different with no consultation from Metrolinx until all the major decisions had been made. Why wouldn't they be upset?

If Metrolinx had handled this properly and put the community first I think much of the opposition would've dissipated.
 
syn said:
The irony is that the government has spent many years (as you pointed out) telling people that above ground transit is for second class citizens, and that those in the suburbs 'deserve' subways. Now they're spending billions to reinforce that idea on suburban projects.

Leslieville isn't the suburbs. I don't agree with them on everything, but they went from an underground extension quite far along in the planning process to something completely different with no consultation from Metrolinx until all the major decisions had been made. Why wouldn't they be upset?

If Metrolinx had handled this properly and put the community first I think much of the opposition would've dissipated.
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Sure theyre not the suburbs but they sure act like they are when it comes to their demands. On this subject I would put the blame on Doug for changing the mandate post election. It wasnt ML who made a design change from the DRL alignment.
Then again, with tunnelling the completion date would most likely be a lot farther away than 2029 projections atm not to mention obscenely more expensive..
 
cplchanb said:
Sure theyre not the suburbs but they sure act like they are when it comes to their demands. On this subject I would put the blame on Doug for changing the mandate post election. It wasnt ML who made a design change from the DRL alignment.
Then again, with tunnelling the completion date would most likely be a lot farther away than 2029 projections atm not to mention obscenely more expensive..
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That's where proper community consultation comes into play. Their 'demands' were not unreasonable when you consider they simply want to return to a plan that was already approved. Many of the concerns were legitimate. Quite frankly, they should've been anticipated and understood by Metrolinx from the start.

It's hard to cite cost as a factor (to residents) when it's quite clear they have no problem implementing obscenely expensive solutions elsewhere in the city.

We can certainly hold Ford accountable, but I think it's also fair to hold Metrolinx accountable for a terrible job dealing handing the community - an ongoing trend.
 
syn said:
That's where proper community consultation comes into play. Their 'demands' were not unreasonable when you consider they simply want to return to a plan that was already approved. Many of the concerns were legitimate. Quite frankly, they should've been anticipated and understood by Metrolinx from the start.

It's hard to cite cost as a factor (to residents) when it's quite clear they have no problem implementing obscenely expensive solutions elsewhere in the city.

We can certainly hold Ford accountable, but I think it's also fair to hold Metrolinx accountable for a terrible job dealing handing the community - an ongoing trend.
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Allowing a group of < 1000 people to kill off important infrastructure projects because they were not personally briefed on a project as though they were some petty king is not "reasonable". This is not how you run a functional technological society, by giving any group of aggrieved residents a veto over critical decisions that affect the populace as a whole.

And if people like you and the Save Jimmie Simpson folks had their way everytime, then nothing would ever get built or anything we built would be incredibly over-priced with minimal effects like the original Relief Line plan. Guess what, when you build things, there is disruption. Disruption sucks, but freezing our cities in amber for 50 years for fear of crossing some NIMBY boomer who owns a little bungalow is not the answer either.
 
MrGoose said:
Allowing a group of < 1000 people to kill off important infrastructure projects because they were not personally briefed on a project as though they were some petty king is not "reasonable". This is not how you run a functional technological society, by giving any group of aggrieved residents a veto over critical decisions that affect the populace as a whole.

And if people like you and the Save Jimmie Simpson folks had their way everytime, then nothing would ever get built or anything we built would be incredibly over-priced with minimal effects like the original Relief Line plan. Guess what, when you build things, there is disruption. Disruption sucks, but freezing our cities in amber for 50 years for fear of crossing some NIMBY boomer who owns a little bungalow is not the answer either.
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Nobody is suggesting that.

This is exactly how these situations develop in the first place. The community is not the enemy. Metrolinx failed to demonstrate they also had their best interests at heart, and failed to communicate the new plan in a way that addressed the greater needs and concerns of the community at large. They've also done a pretty crappy job of justifying why such investments are valid in some projects but not others.

MrGoose said:
And if people like you and the Save Jimmie Simpson folks had their way everytime, then nothing would ever get built or anything we built would be incredibly over-priced with minimal effects like the original Relief Line plan.
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The original Relief plan did not have 'minimal effects'. It was really the only one of the overpriced projects currently on the docket that warranted it's price tag. We seem to have far less of an issue (drastically) overspending on the EWLRT, YNSE or SSE.
 
syn said:
The original Relief plan did not have 'minimal effects'. It was really the only one of the overpriced projects currently on the docket that warranted it's price tag. We seem to have far less of an issue (drastically) overspending on the EWLRT, YNSE or SSE.
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It didn't. The proof of this is the Ontario Line, which does the same thing and much more at a far more reasonable price tag
 
MrGoose said:
Allowing a group of < 1000 people to kill off important infrastructure projects because they were not personally briefed on a project as though they were some petty king is not "reasonable". This is not how you run a functional technological society, by giving any group of aggrieved residents a veto over critical decisions that affect the populace as a whole.

And if people like you and the Save Jimmie Simpson folks had their way everytime, then nothing would ever get built or anything we built would be incredibly over-priced with minimal effects like the original Relief Line plan. Guess what, when you build things, there is disruption. Disruption sucks, but freezing our cities in amber for 50 years for fear of crossing some NIMBY boomer who owns a little bungalow is not the answer either.
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You should post the same sentiment in the YNSE thread. Like a dozen people managed to move a deep line that goes under a river into a line that goes much much more deeper. And they were briefed during the whole process lol.

ARG1 said:
It didn't. The proof of this is the Ontario Line, which does the same thing and much more at a far more reasonable price tag
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There definitely is a cost to using two future rail lines coming into downtown from the east. This is why it was a non-starter from the City and Prov, until it was.
 
44 North said:
You should post the same sentiment in the YNSE thread. Like a dozen people managed to move a deep line that goes under a river into a line that goes much much more deeper. And they were briefed during the whole process lol.
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Yea and it’s terrible there too. And the province should have told them to F off.
44 North said:
There definitely is a cost to using two future rail lines coming into downtown from the east. This is why it was a non-starter from the City and Prov, until it was.
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The Paris RER A transports 1.2 Million people per day on two tracks and the Elizabeth line will be able to do the same.

I think that 4 lines into downtown from the East should be enough for now if we invest in the systems for that kind of capacity.

And when Lakeshore regional rail and Kitchener- Stouffville regional rail get maxed out, then we can think about another tunnel underneath the city.
 
44 North said:
You should post the same sentiment in the YNSE thread. Like a dozen people managed to move a deep line that goes under a river into a line that goes much much more deeper. And they were briefed during the whole process lol.
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You mean like we all already have?
 
syn said:
The original Relief plan did not have 'minimal effects'. It was really the only one of the overpriced projects currently on the docket that warranted it's price tag. We seem to have far less of an issue (drastically) overspending on the EWLRT, YNSE or SSE.
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Bad enough that the corrupt mayor before corrupt Ford stupidly chose a non-priority project like Eglinton over an obvious high-priority one like the DRL as his centrepiece, but then council took forever once it decided to move on the DRL. Their original planning timelines weren't even close to being met. They really took their sweet time. It was as if the downtown anti-DRL sentiment from 1986-2010 never really went away.
44 North said:
You should post the same sentiment in the YNSE thread. Like a dozen people managed to move a deep line that goes under a river into a line that goes much much more deeper. And they were briefed during the whole process lol.
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We saw this with the Crosstown when like a dozen rich condo owners somehow got Jaye Robinson to override Metrolinx's desire to go under the Don and replace that with a Leslie stop. Not that I'd ever accuse someone of being corrupt.
 
GenerationW said:
Bad enough that the corrupt mayor before corrupt Ford stupidly chose a non-priority project like Eglinton over an obvious high-priority one like the DRL as his centrepiece, but then council took forever once it decided to move on the DRL. Their original planning timelines weren't even close to being met. They really took their sweet time. It was as if the downtown anti-DRL sentiment from 1986-2010 never really went away.

We saw this with the Crosstown when like a dozen rich condo owners somehow got Jaye Robinson to override Metrolinx's desire to go under the Don and replace that with a Leslie stop. Not that I'd ever accuse someone of being corrupt.
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We saw the same thing with the Aga Khan stop which Metrolinx proposed to remove but the city fought to have it put back. The stop is right next to the Science Centre station. So instead of having what could have been a grade separated line from the airport to the science centre at least we have what we have today.
 
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