Toronto One Bedford | ?m | 32s | Lanterra | KPMB

Re: One Bedford

Also loving the brutlist example. Which building is that?
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The Royal National Theatre. You can find it on the Albert Embankment on the south side of the Thames.
 
Re: One Bedford

Or when people make concrete proposals - as opposed to useless ones?
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Now you're just being difficult.

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Re: One Bedford

We'll have none of that Nigel Tufnel headbanging here, please.
 
Re: One Bedford

>>"I've never understood this argument. What's wrong with looking institutional, and why is retail necessarily better?"

Just look around you. The street life on Bloor St. West or Queen Street West is certainly more interesting, animated and people friendly than walking south on University from College.

That is why looking "institutional" is not necessarily a good thing.<<

But there's already retail on Bloor both East and West of this site, so if nothing else, where will be lots of people walking by it anyways. And as I said, any retail would probably be similar to stores already in the area. Besides, given the proximity to the University, it could be argued it's the perfect location for "institutional".

Retail is not necessarily a good thing either, especially if it's competing with stores already in the area. If the neighbourhood was say, lacking a grocery store, and this was going to have one, I'd agree with you. But that particular area is already quite well served in pretty much every respect.
 
Re: One Bedford

The Royal National Theatre. You can find it on the Albert Embankment on the south side of the Thames.
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Actually, the Royal National Theatre isn't the traditional favourite Brutalist knocking-point on the South Bank--the Hayward Gallery is
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(with recent entrance additions)
By comparison, the Royal National is practically demure. And while vehement Hayward-hating is traditionally pretty much universal, vehement National-hating's tended to be more confined to the lunatic fringe among carbuncle-hating John Geiger dittoheads. (That is, hating it for its "brutalism". As opposed to hating it for its namby-pambiness--remember, it opened in 1977, the year of the Jubilee and Johnny Rotten...)
 
Re: One Bedford

"Retail is not necessarily a good thing either, especially if it's competing with stores already in the area."

Huh?????????????

Institutional is fine because there are enough people and retail already? Is this a serious argument????

We wouldn't want the street to be too lively now, would we? It might scare the children. Why not tone it down a little with something that will animate the street less. And as for stores, we have enough, thank you. You would not want too much choice or variety. Thats not good for other businesses. Best keep the selection down. In fact, one store would be good enough. Two maybe. Don't want allow other businesses a try or anything. Competition is the last thing we want. My gosh, you might find exactly what you are looking for and at a decent price!
 
Re: One Bedford

Are you suggesting that institutional areas cannot be just as lively as retail areas? I hope not. Walk through the UofT campus, and it's as lively as any area in the city.

You said institutional is not NECESSARILY the best. No, but retail isn't NECESSARILY the best use either. You have to look at each site on a case-by-case basis. Institutional uses can be lively, but aren't always. Retail areas can be lively, but aren't always. There are no hard and fast rules. I live in the area BTW, and Bloor is already very lively despite "institutional" uses like a massive UofT building stretching East along the south side of Bloor from Spadina. The street is no less lively than any street that is all retail, despite lots of "institutional" buildings on Bloor between Avenue Rd. and Spadina.

>>Why not tone it down a little with something that will animate the street less.<<

Institutional buildings don't animate the street any less than retail. If lots of people are using that institution, it can animate the street more than retail. There are plenty of institutional buildings that are just as heavily used, especially during the day, as any store.

If institutional uses meant dead streets, than the entire University campus would be devoid of people. Obviously it is not.
 
Re: One Bedford

Universities are unique creatures because of the large student population. Without this population (most summer months and to some extent weekends), a univesity is very very quiet place. Try going to York University in June. Or compare Bloor Street in the Annex with University Avenue around Queens Park.
 
Re: One Bedford

You seem to be implying that I said institutional is ALWAYS good, and retail is ALWAYS bad. That's not what I said. I said retail isn't ALWAYS better than institutional, and institutional isn't ALWAYS better than retail. An institutional building that has hundreds of people coming and going every day provides far more streetlife and "animation" than most stores. OTOH, a popular store that attracts thousands of people a day can make an area more lively than an institutional buildings that few come and leave from.

But if not near a large institution (like UofT), where would be an appropriate location for an "institutional-looking" building? Or are you suggesting we shouldn't build any more institutional-looking buildings? This buildings is so close to the University campus that an "institutional" look is arguably better than retail for that particular site.

Finally, if the new retail would just be competing with existing retail, then it's not necessarily bringing any more pedestrian traffic to the area. It would just be thinning out the pedestrian traffic amongst more stores.
 
Re: One Bedford

I love walking through normally busy parts of town when they are quiet - the business district around King and Bay at weekends, or the university campus when students are away for the summer, or my own residential neighbourhood during weekdays when parents are at work and kids are at school.
 
Re: One Bedford

Some parts of the U of T campus are always quiet, but some parts are absolutely never quiet, like the corner of Harbord and St. George. There's probably 20,000 kids taking summer courses and all the residences are full all year long.
 
Re: One Bedford

"if the new retail would just be competing with existing retail, then it's not necessarily bringing any more pedestrian traffic to the area. It would just be thinning out the pedestrian traffic amongst more stores."

I just don't get this argument. I can't think of any circumstance where additional street retail thins out crowds. It just makes no sense. I think its safe to say that additional street retail brings in addition people (because there are now additional reasons to be on the street). And stores thrive on the existence of additional stores. That is why Eatons and Simpsons built across the street from each other...and all the record stores opened up near each other on Yonge. And I bet big malls do better traffic than small malls. I just can't imagine how less retail on Bloor is going to mean more people. It makes no sense.


"But if not near a large institution (like UofT), where would be an appropriate location for an "institutional-looking" building?
Or are you suggesting we shouldn't build any more institutional-looking buildings?"

I have said no such thing. But given a choice of retail or institutional on this retail strip, in this particular location, retail will probably do more to help the area stay lively, than the offices of an insurance company.
 
Re: One Bedford

I wouldn't necessarily call Bloor between Ave. and Spadina a "retail strip". It's more like a smattering of retail mixed in with "institutional" buildings, churches, museums, the old stadium site, etc. There are already numerous stretches without any retail.

"retail will probably do more to help the area stay lively, than the offices of an insurance company"

That all depends on the retail. If it's stores that are closed at night than not necessarily. How lively an area is has more to do with the number of people coming and going than the type of use.
 
Re: One Bedford

Why is "lively" - the throng of tightly-packed crowds coursing along streets, anonymous people rubbing against other anonymous people, the absence of quiet - seen as such a desirable thing, such a solution to the imaginary ills of neighbourhoods that aren't "lively"?
 
Re: One Bedford

Harbord Street between Spadina and Bathurst is far better than Bloor between Spadina and Bathurst even though it's far less busy (and I suppose less "lively").

Having nothing but retail at ground-level isn't any more interesting to me than having no retail at ground level. The best streets have a mix of uses along the sidewalk - retail, residential, institutional. Having only one can lead to monotony. I live just a few hundred feet off Bloor Street between Bathurst and Spadina, and without the church across the street from the Dominion (even with it really), the whole stretch is tedious because it's just more of the same. Another bar, another sushi restaurant, another used record store, another coffee shop. Some non-retail uses (other than the one church) would make it far more interesting.
 
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