Toronto Lower Simcoe Ramp | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Do you expect 100,000 people per day to simply say "I won't go downtown", which hurts the businesses in the area? Or do you expect them to flood onto other downtown streets, which creates more traffic and slows down streetcar service? Those are the only two alternatives, unless the subway system has room to accommodate all those people (which it doesn't).

Did I suggest anything like we need to do it today (recall me saying that it is "fanciful")? Relax, one can acknowledge the urban design superiority of removal even when there are practical issues with implementing it. You know deep down which option is better from a purely urban point of view - or you wouldn't have reacted the way you did.

And funny one should raise the streetcar service issue - if one is so concerned about that, one'd be a little more diligent in prioritizing that mode over vehicular traffic given the ridership in the first place. I just love how the "think of the streetcar" always get trotted out as a red herring.

AoD

 

[kotsy]

Thoroughly enjoyed those before/after shots! Thanks so much for the share.

 

[darth_freeman]

Thoroughly enjoyed those before/after shots! Thanks so much for the share.

Indeed! Will be anxiously awaiting the "final" shots taken next Summer after the inevitable delays when the project is complete with new ramp and Harbour Street widened to 4 lanes.

 

[Ross W]

Indeed! Will be anxiously awaiting the "final" shots taken next Summer after the inevitable delays when the project is complete with new ramp and Harbour Street widened to 4 lanes.

Yes. Thanks for posting.
I was just down there and was talking to a foreman about when the pillars are to be removed. He said THEY ARE ALL STAYING FOR ART! I can just see the graffiti and taggers waiting with their paint cans when the park opens. I thought a park was for all greenery,not 50% concrete. Who is going to watch for taggers and graffiti "artists" 24 hrs?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes. Thanks for posting.
I was just down there and was talking to a foreman about when the pillars are to be removed. He said THEY ARE ALL STAYING FOR ART! I can just see the graffiti and taggers waiting with their paint cans when the park opens. I thought a park was for all greenery,not 50% concrete. Who is going to watch for taggers and graffiti "artists" 24 hrs?

Not my preferred outcome in this case, but the Underpass Park is a good example of concrete support columns being used for art. Besides, let's not exaggerate - the footprint of the columns occupy a tiny portion of the overall site.

AoD

 

[ttk77]

Yeah...I'd rather not jump to conclusions about how the columns are going to fit in with the overall design before we see an actual design. I'm surprised there hasn't been something released yet. It makes me worry that they're going to try to do this on the cheap.

 

[kotsy]

Assuming the columns aren't painted like Underpass Park - are the ones from the east Gardiner section that was removed known for being tagged?

 

[DSC]

Yes. Thanks for posting.
I was just down there and was talking to a foreman about when the pillars are to be removed. He said THEY ARE ALL STAYING FOR ART! I can just see the graffiti and taggers waiting with their paint cans when the park opens. I thought a park was for all greenery,not 50% concrete. Who is going to watch for taggers and graffiti "artists" 24 hrs?

Have you seen any graffiti on the same bents along Lake Shore East where the far-east part of the Gardiner was removed a while ago? (Not that I really want them to stay in this park but I think that if they do stay graffiti may be the least of the problems - and were they graffitied when they supported the ramp? .)

 

[Markster]

I was just down there and was talking to a foreman about when the pillars are to be removed. He said THEY ARE ALL STAYING FOR ART!

I am very happy if this is truly the case!

 

[Lyphe]

Do you expect 100,000 people per day to simply say "I won't go downtown", which hurts the businesses in the area? Or do you expect them to flood onto other downtown streets, which creates more traffic and slows down streetcar service? Those are the only two alternatives, unless the subway system has room to accommodate all those people (which it doesn't).

That is a pretty empty argument.

You could have made the same case for not allowing any new construction to begin downtown many years ago as the Gardiner has always been packed, at least for the last 20 years that I remember it. But we did build. More people than ever come downtown. More people than ever want to live downtown. And communters have found other ways to get into the city or people have moved to other means such as public transit. Also, I'd argue that the east-west danforth subway line is hardly full as you imply. Yonge subway yes - Danforth no. So your argument is quite moot.

Also, taking down the Gardiner does not mean people need to lose their ability to get downtown. Options include wide boulevards with lower speed limits ( since the city core should be a destination and not a place you drive past on an expressway ). Or if you want to really think big, the alternate option would be to build a tunnel for the through traffic so that you retain an express while moving local cars to actual streets and boulevards.

Likely the best option is a tunnel and boulevard combination - but that will take a lot of money, so who knows when and if it will happen.

 

[wmedia]

A couple more pics of the new girders.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Options include wide boulevards with lower speed limits ( since the city core should be a destination and not a place you drive past on an expressway ).

which will just be mass of traffic if people think Lake shore is ba now and hard to cross wait until it's even wider then people will beg for an elevated highway to be built or some sort of solution to it. There is absolutely no good reason to take down the gardiner expressway poel need to stop talking about what other cities did and just suck up the fact trah we need the Gardner expressway just as much as we need the DVP and the 401 and any other highways in the city of Toronto.

 

[amnesiajune]

which will just be mass of traffic if people think Lake shore is ba now and hard to cross wait until it's even wider then people will beg for an elevated highway to be built or some sort of solution to it. There is absolutely no good reason to take down the gardiner expressway poel need to stop talking about what other cities did and just suck up the fact trah we need the Gardner expressway just as much as we need the DVP and the 401 and any other highways in the city of Toronto.

I think what we need to do are projects like these, where we get rid of all the overbuilt parts of the Gardiner and reduce its footprint while keeping all its traffic off of surface streets.

 

[Ross W]

Have you seen any graffiti on the same bents along Lake Shore East where the far-east part of the Gardiner was removed a while ago? (Not that I really want them to stay in this park but I think that if they do stay graffiti may be the least of the problems - and were they graffitied when they supported the ramp? .)

None that I could see. But now that is becoming a park with the ramp removed,taggers are more likely to do so.Just like advertisers like to put their ads in places where the public can see them,taggers do the same.Best example is taggers have painted every bridge,rail control box,fence and commercial building they can get at so people on trains will see their garbage. The LS east and west lines are the worst.Taggers also love traffic control boxes,mail,Bell and Rogers to tag.

 

[jaybe]

That is a pretty empty argument.

You could have made the same case for not allowing any new construction to begin downtown many years ago as the Gardiner has always been packed, at least for the last 20 years that I remember it. But we did build. More people than ever come downtown. More people than ever want to live downtown. And communters have found other ways to get into the city or people have moved to other means such as public transit. Also, I'd argue that the east-west danforth subway line is hardly full as you imply. Yonge subway yes - Danforth no. So your argument is quite moot.

Also, taking down the Gardiner does not mean people need to lose their ability to get downtown. Options include wide boulevards with lower speed limits ( since the city core should be a destination and not a place you drive past on an expressway ). Or if you want to really think big, the alternate option would be to build a tunnel for the through traffic so that you retain an express while moving local cars to actual streets and boulevards.

Likely the best option is a tunnel and boulevard combination - but that will take a lot of money, so who knows when and if it will happen.

I had the opportunity to visit Seoul and Tokyo recently. In addition to outstanding transit systems both mega cities had urban thoroughfares, very wide streets with 6+ lanes, where vehicles could go fast (60km+). In Tokyo there are multiple highways that wind through the core of the city.

When I consider arguments to remove the Gardiner, these thoughts come to mind:
1. The Gardiner-DVP is the only expressway into Toronto's core.
2. Our core was built years ago and does not have a network of wide urban thoroughfares, either east/west or north/south that can accommodate large volumes of traffic. Our narrow main streets (Bloor, College, Dundas, Queen, King, Dufferin, Bathurst, Bay, Yonge, Jarvis, etc, etc) are a beautiful feature of our City.
3. We have a limited public transit network (with virtually no redundancy).

The Gardiner is an essential part of our infrastructure. Perhaps as we build out the DRL and other transit projects it will become less essential. Until then, the argument to remove it would strand many commuters and make our City much less efficient.