everydayhim
Active Member
Seen from above
Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto
jaybe
Active Member
At the risk of bringing this thread back to where it was one month+ ago, I am in Hamburg and have spent the last couple of days walking. I’m beside Hafen City and I’m overwhelmed at the similarities between the space here and what is planned for the Lower Don Lands.
One month ago there was much discussion on this thread about design, transit, density and building height. Hafen City https://www.hamburg.com/residents/neighbourhoods/hafencity-17118 may be a worthwhile comparison. There may be lessons learned in Hamburg that could apply to Toronto as they are 10-15 years ahead in delivering on their plans. Following are a couple of photos of the area.
The buildings are tightly placed together with most at a height of 9 stories from the street. There are taller sections that are typically set back. Streets are tight ,some are primarily pedestrian but they’ve designed the area to be accessible with busier, wider roads. The area is served by rapid transit. The canals and river are similar to the Don, Keating Channel and the Ship Channel. There are some older buildings on the one side of the area, but otherwise it is new development.
I’m a quiet follower on this site with no formal education or work experience related to urban planning. I’m throwing this out as it seems relevant and HafenCity has not been raised on this thread before.
One month ago there was much discussion on this thread about design, transit, density and building height. Hafen City https://www.hamburg.com/residents/neighbourhoods/hafencity-17118 may be a worthwhile comparison. There may be lessons learned in Hamburg that could apply to Toronto as they are 10-15 years ahead in delivering on their plans. Following are a couple of photos of the area.
The buildings are tightly placed together with most at a height of 9 stories from the street. There are taller sections that are typically set back. Streets are tight ,some are primarily pedestrian but they’ve designed the area to be accessible with busier, wider roads. The area is served by rapid transit. The canals and river are similar to the Don, Keating Channel and the Ship Channel. There are some older buildings on the one side of the area, but otherwise it is new development.
I’m a quiet follower on this site with no formal education or work experience related to urban planning. I’m throwing this out as it seems relevant and HafenCity has not been raised on this thread before.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Wonderful photos! Actually it has - for years even before this particular project is a glimmer in our eyes:
Hafencity and Harbourfront
Recently I was in Hamburg and took a stroll through the beginnings of their massive waterfront redevelopment, Hafencity. I'm always willing to believe the best of developments before I go and see them myself, but from the bits of Hafencity I saw I was very unimpressed and it makes me wonder what...
Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto
There was quite a difference even between 7:30 am and 4:30 pm today (let's see if this animated GIF works...) Keep an eye on the north side of the bridge too.
One of the most amazing thing about Hafencity is that it is designed with flooding and climate change in mind. Having said that I think Hafencity is lower density than what's proposed for Villiers - there are barely any real highrises in the former (and I believe one of the few - Elbtower - is currently under receivership)
AoD
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afransen
Senior Member
HafenCity is designed to accommodate 14,000 residents and 45,000 jobs in 157 hectares, for 95 residents + 286 jobs per hectare = 375 residents + jobs per hectare. This is definitely on the low side of density compared to other districts in Toronto.
By comparison the recently revised Villiers Precinct plan calls for 9,000 units/15,000 residents and 2,900 jobs on 19.4 hectares of developable land, or 773 residents + 149 jobs = 922 people + jobs per hectare (with a much heavier skew to residents). So we could try to get a form more like HafenCity but that would likely require a substantial downward revision down in density targets. All this as noted by NL.
What I kind of wonder is why we feel constrained to developing these kind of midrise districts on brownfield industrial site redevelopments. Maybe this waterfront site proximate to downtown is going to be developed more densely, but I can see something like Hafencity being quite popular/desirable in some of the inner suburbs, along Line 2 for instance.
UtakataNoAnnex
Senior Member
Not sure how we're supposed to get the pedestrian street level feel pictured above with the big box podium development mentality and our city's obsession with cars. I mean, we don't even have any people only designated streets here. It's all rum, bumper to bumper and the lash... /sigh
RyanD
Active Member
I went to Hafencity back in 2021, very cool area.
Towered
Superstar
I know, just look at that one picture from above of Hafen City - midrises lining extra wide sidewalks with trees, and only a measly two narrow lanes for cars. Toronto seems to have incredible difficulty building roads like that even though it should be very easy. This city frustrates me to no end.
coldblood
New Member
Now that the Keating Channel isn't the main outflow for the Don, and with the area being converted into residential, I wonder if the city would ever consider allowing it to be lined with houseboats. 
DSC
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I doubt it - it is still going to be a rushing torrent if/when we have flood conditions.Now that the Keating Channel isn't the main outflow for the Don, and with the area being converted into residential, I wonder if the city would ever consider allowing it to be lined with houseboats.
daverramma
New Member
Although it seems counter intuitive, the keating channel because of its depth will still convey the majority of the water from the Don River. The new river will function more as a relief valve during major storm events.Now that the Keating Channel isn't the main outflow for the Don, and with the area being converted into residential, I wonder if the city would ever consider allowing it to be lined with houseboats.
70Challenger
Active Member
Love that first building.
RyanD
Active Member
Front Street in Canary District comes to mind. That said the ROW is waaaay too wide (despite a narrow road). Its 50m between buildings of mostly empty sidewalk.
When visiting Hafencity it felt a lot like a better executed version of Canary district. 14m between buildings vs 50m.
UtakataNoAnnex
Senior Member
Amen, my green Tri-Klops friend.
goreckm
Active Member
100% . But, I took a quick look at Google Maps, having never been to Hamburg before, and it seems this area has 3 subway stops, and 2 subway lines nearby and a RER just on the border, and at least 2 bus lines crossing through. That is a level of transit that is rare in our city, and not anything close to what we'll see in the portlands. Most people are expected to be using cars here, and until we start overbuilding transit, this is going to continue. Our main hope for improvement in the short term will be an increase in mode share for walking and cycling, but that's harder in our climate, and it also would require more businesses being mixed into these developments.
Grimace
Active Member
I think the use of the term "overbuilding transit" is the key here. It is not overbuilding. It is transit. We are developing the entire east bayfront and portlands as if its main purpose is to handle 3 eighteen-wheelers in each direction at any given time.