Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

Oct 28
These photos as well more up on my site show why the Oct date was miss with Cherry opening up late this month or in Dec and a toss up if Commissioner will open this year at all. I didn't get a look the the east end of Commissioner to see where it stands.

The cycling path not built period and we know the Cycles hold great power these days to get thing done for them. Until built, road close

Been said the Cherry Lift bridge will be gone by year end, but it will remain in place until the New Cherry St opens or until Commissioner St does for the cycles
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The area to north of bike track is where the QQE extension would be and it looks open for it. We should see better when that section of New Cherry is finished.
From the curbs they have now poured on New Cherry I think they have NOT allowed for the re-aligned and longer QQE meeting (and crossing) it but that is really not hard to do when it happens.
 
Disclaimer: this isn't directed at you specifically, but someone needs to say it out loud. Please just hear me out before anyone makes up their mind to disagree.
It would have made alot of sense and it is possible physically. Yet because we prefer too look 5 years into the future, city Hall decided to invest in repairing it, and has already awarded contracts. It is at a point where we can no longer do a u-turn and change course. This is something the boulevard advocates don't understand either.

The best time to plant a tree is 50 years ago, the second best time is now.

We understand the sunk cost, we just think it pales in comparison to the cost of keeping and maintaining the Gardiner until it's time to have this conversation again - both directly and indirectly.

Pro-Gardiner Rebuild advocates typically bring up the sunk cost as the principle argument, and when you do the cost-benefit analysis on a limited enough time frame, they're correct.

But what about the developable land both for housing and tax revenue that opens up when it's gone? And that isn't even all of it. The issue I have is we're not looking at the whole picture, and we're not thinking big enough. There's SO many taxable positive externalities that have not been quantified in this cost-benefit analysis approach, let alone quality of life improvements, that come from removing the Gardiner. Think of the potential over the next 40 years to attract investment and tax revenue along a clean, quite, downtown, waterfront corridor of one of North America's 4th largest city.

That's only one aspect of the fiscal argument. Walk from Front St to Queen's Quay today - it takes 10 minutes and it sucks. Reflect on just how much better it could be with an overbuilt park along the rail line, no highway, fully built out Port Lands, and bridge connected cycle track around the Inner Harbour. We don't need a huge boulevard to replace all the traffic flow, just copy and paste Spadina Ave with a cycle track and more trees. I guarantee that option generates more revenue than the Gardiner in the long term.

Where's all the traffic going to go with the Gardiner gone?
This is an extremely common misunderstanding of transportation planning, the premise being that the number of people driving will stay the same, and it's patently incorrect. Every piece of modern research disputes this when using time frames more than 3 years. It is not the fiscal responsibility of urban Toronto taxpayers to enable ex-urban dwellers to drive personal vehicles anywhere they like. No tourist goes to Manhattan or Tokyo expecting to drive everywhere, this is no different (if we do the next bit).

People will not stop coming downtown if there is a moderately efficient way to get around, the question is how. The central piece to the Gardiner removal is: we absolutely must substantially improve the public transit experience in Toronto. That's everything from signal priorities and headways, to platform doors; we need another major downtown station to provide redundancy to Union. Along with widespread cycling, it's the only way we're going to solve our transportation problems as this city continues to grow during a climate emergency.

The alternative is to use the sunk cost fallacy and poorly researched planning principles to condemn our future to pollution and congestion. And when our problems don't change, we can all blame immigrants and poor people, vote to reduce taxes, and end up exactly where we already are.
 
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From the curbs they have now poured on New Cherry I think they have NOT allowed for the re-aligned and longer QQE meeting (and crossing) it but that is really not hard to do when it happens.
That was one thing I looked at last year as well this year is how the tracks will cross Commissioner to connect to Cherry St and Commissioner ROW, It will a weekend to 4 days of closure for everything for Commissioner St to tear out the area where the tracks are to go on a curve to get to the south side of Commissioner to the ROW. While this is being done, the east crossing should be done at the same time if possible depending what impact it will have on Old Cherry St or be done at a different time with another time being the best option as this gets move down the road.

One thing that should be look at is a traffic light for the east end crossing of Commissioner that stay green until a streetcar trigger it to cross it. Keep in mind there are 2 crossing a block apart. Otherwise, we are back where streetcars have to fight their way out of loops or to turn onto another route.

Trees are sitting/laying at the Lake Shore area to be planted once the area is ready for them

Between the OL project, the city lacking funding for transit and poor transit planning, we will be all dead before we will see the transit built on the waterfront as well seeing real good transit system city wide.

Transit First has been a joke for TTC and the City as most don't use transit in the first place and march to the tune of the car to get reelected as well pushing their own agenda that has an impact on transit that its at the bottom of the list.

As a note, prefer to to see the lift bridge control tower to remain where it exist as a reminder that there used to be a bridge there for decades.
 
Er...
This is an extremely common misunderstanding of transportation planning, the premise being that the number of people driving will stay the same, and it's patently incorrect.
...versus...

People will not stop coming downtown if there is a moderately efficient way to get around, the question is how.
...so which is it? One can't be patently incorrect if the other is true.

And I also said...
Unless they're planning to make the Waterfront an entirely car free zone...
...which addresses much of what you saying how they would go about removing it infrastructure wise, albeit more extreme than what you are proposing. So I guess we can least agree that if they plan to remove this, they better come up with serious way to address traffic issues that this will likely cause both in the short and long term. Because there will be issues, lol.
 
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...so which is it? One can't be patently incorrect if the other is true.
Fair, I could have worded it better. This piece from Waterfront Toronto does a better job explaining:
Common sense would suggest that if you remove an expressway, that traffic must go somewhere, with the result that the same number of cars trying to squish into fewer lanes, or clogging up other routes. However, what the evidence from real-life case studies shows is that a portion of the traffic simply “disappears.” While counterintuitive at first, the reality is that as commuters make decisions about how to travel into the city’s downtown, considerations such as traffic congestion, mass transit options, flexible work hours, telecommuting and technological changes encourage drivers to re-evaluate their option – which is a very rational thing to do.
My point was that we should remove the Gardiner completely - sunk cost or not - and that traffic would actually get better downtown. However, I only advocate for this if we can increase the quality of our transit network.

Highways play an important role in modern transportation, just not through the waterfront community downtown.
 
The time to demolish the portion of the Gardiner running through the central waterfront was decades ago when it was empty. That area has been built up so much now that removing it would be far too complicated and more trouble than it's worth for anyone willing to fund it (not to mention the astronomical costs involved in doing so). Who is going to pay for that? What are they gonna replace it with? Who's gonna pay for whatever replaces it?
 
The time to demolish the portion of the Gardiner running through the central waterfront was decades ago when it was empty. That area has been built up so much now that removing it would be far too complicated and more trouble than it's worth for anyone willing to fund it (not to mention the astronomical costs involved in doing so). Who is going to pay for that? What are they gonna replace it with? Who's gonna pay for whatever replaces it?
Us...the answer to who pays is always taxpayers in one for or another...

One thing that could better help, (possibly), is turning more of our DT streets into one ways, or more like Jarvis with the switching lane, though no specifics in mind. One of the downfalls of our city is the that we have the lake in terms of people moving throughout the city and not being able to be spread across 360 degrees. How is Chicago on the traffic scale? I know they have bad traffic, but I hardly hear of them with these similar issues. Mind you their Lake Shore is an at grade highway and still have a disconnect to the Lake through the downtown. Is their train service better? etc.
 
How is Chicago on the traffic scale? I know they have bad traffic, but I hardly hear of them with these similar issues.


In the above Chicago is ranked number 1 for congestion; to be clear, like many lisiticles the statistical quality needs to be questioned.

Different surveys use different methodology, but suffice to say Chicago has a congestion issue.

Mind you their Lake Shore is an at grade highway and still have a disconnect to the Lake through the downtown


Chicago is a different beast than Toronto.

The yellow/orange is highway or highway-like infra:

You've basically got 2 N-S corridors and E-W corridors feeding downtown Chicago.

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. Is their train service better? etc.

No.

'The EL' (their subway) has less service frequency overall and a lower modal share; though it does have somewhat better coverage and more stations.

METRA is their answer to GO and I would call it 'comparable' Most routes have some off-peak and weekend service. By and large their service is slightly below where GO was at its peak, but pretty comparable to the current schedules.
 

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