Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I'm very confused by the 3.6m lanes - the city standard is 3.3m for curbside lanes, which is very small by North American standards. No idea why they went with an extra foot of lane width, especially with 3.6 instead of the more typical 3.5. Perhaps it has to do with the amount of expected industrial traffic that will still move through the area?
That said - the road crossing distance for pedestrians is still small.. only 10.2m.. The standard Toronto downtown 4 lane road (King, Queen, Yonge, etc.) is 13-14m wide. It's a small crossing length any way you put it, albeit it could be 2 feet smaller.
The general configuration is very similar to Queens Quay for Commissioners and Cherry - nobody complains about Queens Quay.
it's not an intimate little local street, sure, but every city needs some larger ROWs. There will be a healthy mix of smaller ROWs mixed in to provide that intimate environment.
This is no different than anywhere around the globe. Europe is the same way, lots of small little intimate streets mixed in with a few larger ROWs.
That said - the road crossing distance for pedestrians is still small.. only 10.2m.. The standard Toronto downtown 4 lane road (King, Queen, Yonge, etc.) is 13-14m wide. It's a small crossing length any way you put it, albeit it could be 2 feet smaller.
The general configuration is very similar to Queens Quay for Commissioners and Cherry - nobody complains about Queens Quay.
it's not an intimate little local street, sure, but every city needs some larger ROWs. There will be a healthy mix of smaller ROWs mixed in to provide that intimate environment.
This is no different than anywhere around the globe. Europe is the same way, lots of small little intimate streets mixed in with a few larger ROWs.
drum118
Superstar
Both Cherry and Commissioners St are wider than 10.2m, as you forgot the bike lanes and the streetcar ROW that will be there also. Both Cherry and Commissioners St are the main corridor that will carry industrial traffic.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
yes but pedestrians will generally be able to cross the streetcar and bicycle rows without waiting for a signal, especially given the 3m wide layby's between the streetcar ROW and vehicle lanes proposed, and the relatively low frequency these streetcars will likely operate at.
steveintoronto
Superstar
I'm glad it's not just me. I ran into a lot of flak pointing this out when I first joined this forum. For the life of me, it's not a place I enjoy cycling through, let alone to live.
It may have been an industrial wasteland before Pan Am, but it was genuine, and hosted many artists...financially successful ones...before being 'improved'. Those artists have now all moved out of Toronto, one of them a well known Cdn jeweller.
Even the cycle routes don't make any sense. At best, it's a robot with no soul. St Lawrence Co-op it ain't.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Which begs the question on Sidewalk's proposals. Btw, I have some doubts about MAH guidelines being behind the vast swaths. I'll check and get back to this string. It's a crucial question.
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I hate cobbles. That said, when I was bike touring in Europe, there were a lot of cobbles and a lot of people cycling on them just fine, even in the rain.
steveintoronto
Superstar
For most cyclists, they're an accident waiting to happen. Not to mention that they destroy the sense of smooth motion and predictability of action that's essential to the control of the machine.
While some jurisdictions think it's 'elan' to put down cobblestones (or cheap brick imitations with sharp edges) Copenhagen is going the opposite way:
http://www.copenhagenize.com/2014/04/bicycle-friendly-cobblestones.html
Ole Kassow from Purpose Makers - and brainchild behind the Cycling Without Age movement - gave us this great shot from a street in the Østerbro neighbourhood of Copenhagen. The City has a new thing they're doing. Replacing the old, bumpy cobblestones on certain streets with smooth ones. Just a strip, like down the middle on this one-way street - to make it a smoother ride for bicycle users. The city keeps a number of streets cobblestoned because of aesthetics and historical reasons. History can be a bumpy ride, though.
We like how the new cobblestones are elegantly woven into the existing ones.
On a street in the centre of Copenhagen, there are now smoother strips along the curbs for bicycle users to use. Above is a delegation from the City of Groningen, who we took on a Bicycle Urbanism tour of the city a few weeks ago. Apart from their fascination with the curb-separated cycle tracks (they filmed them in order to convince their engineers that they work... yes, they're from Groningen), these smooth cobblestone strips were an object of fascination and I had to drag them away in order to get to lunch in time.
I love how even established bicycle cities can continued to be inspired by each other. There is no complete bicycle city - yet.
Have a look at the street in the top photo again. It is a one way street but it's clear that the Arrogance of Space exists even in Copenhagen. Stupidly wide street and that means the sidewalks look like this. Cars are prioritised still - at the expense of the pedestrians and bicycle users and basically everyone in the city. And this in a neighbourhood with only just over 20% car ownership.
Attachments
smably
Senior Member
Sure, but will the signal timing reflect that? On Queens Quay, the N/S pedestrian signals are timed to allow pedestrians to cross the roadway, ROW, and the Martin Goodman, so signal cycles are very long. It's frustrating as a pedestrian and it seems like they're replicating that design in the Lower Don Lands.
jaco_says
New Member
They could have gotten rid of the turning lane for one. And get rid of street parking on the main through roads. There are many things they can do to narrow it, they just don't care enough about safety. The design review panel also criticized them for the ROW widths and they did nothing to address it.
44 North
Senior Member
Was thinking there could be a road capacity issue going into the future (not avg day more for events, which there are currently some like Cirque and future will likely be many). Cherry will see the brunt and it's 1-lane each way. Then I recalled a New Munitions Street and it having a bridge. Has a bridge there been cut for budgetary reasons, will it be added later when capacity deems it, or has it been dropped? Cuz I see it shown on the maps on the previous page, but not really addressed otherwise and don't recall seeing it on the Cherry Commish bridge design presentation.
Jasonzed
Senior Member
achender
Active Member
Well, those aerial shots beat the cr@p out of my pictures. But for what it's worth, they were filling the new section closest to Cherry st today.
A steady stream of dump trucks offloading fill coming and going.
Also from the site of the new river channel lots of equipment removing trees and asphalt, and pushing dirt around.
A steady stream of dump trucks offloading fill coming and going.
Also from the site of the new river channel lots of equipment removing trees and asphalt, and pushing dirt around.
Attachments
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
WT Nov Construction Notice:
https://portlandsto.ca/wp-content/uploads/Final-Construction-Notice-PLFP-November-2018.pdf
AoD
https://portlandsto.ca/wp-content/uploads/Final-Construction-Notice-PLFP-November-2018.pdf
AoD
ADRM
Senior Member
Neat/exciting pic from that update -- the new shoreline-to-be is clearly visible here, as is the new dockwall to the north.