Toronto in the World

[Mongo]

Considering that this thread is about the comparative number of highrises UNDER CONSTRUCTION at the current time, a lot of these criticisms completely miss the point. No one doubts that there are far more highrises in Hong Kong than in Toronto (or even than in New York). But that is not what is being compared, instead it's the number of highrises under construction over 100m (and 150m, 200m, 250m, ,,,) and I am sure that those numbers are a lot more complete than the shorter buildings would be, even for Asian cities. Are there any 250m buildings under construction in Shenzhen that SSP is unaware of? Possibly, but I doubt it.

 

[kkgg7]

Considering that this thread is about the comparative number of highrises UNDER CONSTRUCTION at the current time, a lot of these criticisms completely miss the point. No one doubts that there are far more highrises in Hong Kong than in Toronto (or even than in New York). But that is not what is being compared, instead it's the number of highrises under construction over 100m (and 150m, 200m, 250m, ,,,) and I am sure that those numbers are a lot more complete than the shorter buildings would be, even for Asian cities. Are there any 250m buildings under construction in Shenzhen that SSP is unaware of? Possibly, but I doubt it.

You do know Shanghai is construcing a 600M+ building, right? well, that's taller than if you put FCP on top of Scotia Plaza, or you put Trump Toronto, Shangrila Toronto as well as the Ritz Carlton on top of each other.

Both Shanghai and Shenzhen are fast growing cities growing at 10% per year (Toronto, maybe 2% at best?), and each year tens of thousands of new migrant workers move to these new cities for opportunities, and you are naive to believe there are more buildings under construction than these cties 10 or 8 times Toronto's size?

Honestly, folks, quit keep talking about "north America" and feel so good about Toronto's vibant downtown and growth. Visit a real big city in Asia, and you will immediately feel how small Toronto actually is! Toronto's "pedestrians", and condos boom are really nothing impressive in comparison, for real. Shanghai and Shenzhen's department stores and markets are open till 11pm or midnight mostly, people shop and dine out at 10 or 11pm. Their bars and nightclubs open until 4am; and it is not only in downtown. Cities like Shanghai doesnt have one downtown, it has 6 or 7 downtowns in different corners of the city, with 24 hour pedestrian traffic. Street foods are practically everywhere. Almost all streets are mixed used with plenty of retail/dining/entertainment. Yonge/Queen West/Bloor are nothing compared with Huaihai Road and Nanjing Road when it comes to how busy and vibrant the streets are. The financial district is very tiny and not tall at all compared with Lujiazui's real super talls. People's square is like 10 times the size of Dundas Square with 10+ department stores, 4 or 5 theatres, art galleris, restaurants etc, a big park and three subway lines.

That being said, Toronto is not a bad city. It does stand out among "North America"s handful of real big cities in terms of street life and energy. However, don't stretch it. Don't imagine it leads the world in anything. For someone from Shanghai, Shenzhen or Tokyo, Toronto is really a mid-sized city with some OK energy, but really not comparable to their cities even by a long shot. Most Asians settle in Toronto because it is a smaller city than they used to live in, and life here is quieter, not because it is a big city.

 

[howl]

One thing to keep in mind is there is a high-rise construction industry out there that has to keep working. They work wherever there is the most profit to be made. If a company is lined up to do a job in Atlanta or Indianapolis and then the market in one those cities dries up they simply move on to another project in another city. If building high-rises in Toronto is currently more profitable than any other city in North America it’s because the GTA is the one market that hasn’t been severely impacted by the global economic downturn. It’s the one place where people are still buying units.

I think part of the reason for it being a profitable place to build right now is because it’s a relatively stable place as far as government and planning are concerned. Developers (and more importantly their financial backers) are relatively confident that the GTA will continue to grow as predicted in the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe and they can therefore make relatively secure long term investments. In other jurisdictions developers have much less confidence in the government and its long term planning, which means making long-term investments is a much bigger risk. They simply don’t know when they start a project if it will ever get approved, or if the infrastructure to support it will ever be put in place, because so many of those decisions are made haphazardly in the political arena. Of course the GGH growth plan is only valid if the government keeps its commitments on infrastructure, particularly rapid transit infrastructure.

 

[Thanos]

Honestly, folks, quit keep talking about "north America" and feel so good about Toronto's vibant downtown and growth. Visit a real big city in Asia, and you will immediately feel how small Toronto actually is! Toronto's "pedestrians", and condos boom are really nothing impressive in comparison, for real.

And what's wrong with that? Should we not feel any pride in the current boom just because other cities are growing faster?
There are people who prefer living in a city of 3 million instead of one with 20 million.
You're making it sound as if Toronto is some sort of ghost town.
What i do not understand from your posts is that you'll argue that Toronto lacks civic pride and then when Torontonians defend the city you say we are blind and need to visit other cities. Which one is it?
There's other more important factors in life then the ability to shop at midnight and drink at 6am.

 

[adma]

Kkgg7 likes his urbanity silicone-enhanced.

Asia has silicone-enhanced urbanity in spades. Whereas places like Toronto are "content"--and "content" isn't good enough for kkgg7. He needs silicone. Lotsa lotsa silicone.

 

[Marko]

Kkgg7 likes his urbanity silicone-enhanced.

You've made more than one recent comparison to silicone enhancement - make me wonder if you're contemplating some enhancement of your own.


As for China, I was in Shenzhen Monday and Tuesday and am in Shanghai now. I can tell you there are hundreds of cranes in both cities, most on residential buildings in the 40-60 story range. It would be unbelievable in Toronto, but they put up 10, 12, 15 of the same building on a block at one time - all of them very tall. I've been in the outer areas of Shanghai more, visiting suppliers, and having roughly counted 100 or more myself, would bet that there are probably 200+ such buildings going up.

Kkgg7 has a slightly annoying posting style, but he's not wrong. Shanghai would be like every major Canadian city's buildings scattered into the GTA, with some supertalls thrown in for kicks. I'm going to the Urban Development Museum this morning to see that city model in person - can't wait.

 

[Mongo]

Here is a diagram I put together, showing the number of completed 200m+ buildings in New York, Chicago and Toronto by year. Toronto is building these in the greatest numbers right now, but New York and Chicago have been building at a similar level for decades. Nevertheless, Toronto is closing the gap with Chicago, if not with New York.

I should point out that this chart only includes buildings with an announced completion date, if the recent proposals without a known completion date were included, the number of Toronto buildings would be over 20.

 

[Danielinthecity]

Honestly, folks, quit keep talking about "north America" and feel so good about Toronto's vibant downtown and growth. Visit a real big city in Asia, and you will immediately feel how small Toronto actually is! Toronto's "pedestrians", and condos boom are really nothing impressive in comparison, for real.

And what's wrong with that? Should we not feel any pride in the current boom just because other cities are growing faster?
There are people who prefer living in a city of 3 million instead of one with 20 million.
You're making it sound as if Toronto is some sort of ghost town.
What i do not understand from your posts is that you'll argue that Toronto lacks civic pride and then when Torontonians defend the city you say we are blind and need to visit other cities. Which one is it?
There's other more important factors in life then the ability to shop at midnight and drink at 6am.

EXACTLY! Geez, when I read that post, I thought...hmmmm...WTF, should I feel ashamed instead?! Not sure if that's what he meant, but it's good to point it out as I for one DO feel REAL good about Toronto's vibrant downtown and growth, "even if it isn't on the same scale as cities in Asia" right now.

 

[ichigo]

Talking about Chicago, it seems Chicago's population is now lower than it was in 1920. Kind of surprising, isn't it?
The same is true of Detroit (much less surprising).

 

[ichigo]

Interesting data from the CTBUH (Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat)

Tall Building Information & Resources:
http://www.ctbuh.org/TallBuildings/tabid/485/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Tall Buildings Height & Statistics:
http://www.ctbuh.org/TallBuildings/HeightStatistics/tabid/1735/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Tall Buildings: Height & Statistics: Tall Buildings in Numbers:
http://www.ctbuh.org/Publications/Journal/InNumbers/tabid/1108/language/en-US/Default.aspx

World's Tallest 50 Urban Agglomerations
CTBUH Journal 2009 Issue II
http://www.ctbuh.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=SNAwgFrF+gk=&tabid=1108&language=en-GB

 

[kkgg7]

Interesting data from the CTBUH (Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat)

Tall Building Information & Resources:
http://www.ctbuh.org/TallBuildings/tabid/485/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Tall Buildings Height & Statistics:
http://www.ctbuh.org/TallBuildings/HeightStatistics/tabid/1735/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Tall Buildings: Height & Statistics: Tall Buildings in Numbers:
http://www.ctbuh.org/Publications/Journal/InNumbers/tabid/1108/language/en-US/Default.aspx

World's Tallest 50 Urban Agglomerations
CTBUH Journal 2009 Issue II
http://www.ctbuh.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=SNAwgFrF+gk=&tabid=1108&language=en-GB

The order seems to make more sense, when Tokyo and Shanghai have more than twice 100+ than Toronto does, just like how I felt. Hong Kong is extremely cogested, and the city is full of entire WALLS of highrises. Imagine St James Park, but every building is twice or three times as tall, with much less distance in between spreading all over the city.
It also makes sense Toronto has the third most 100+ buildings after NYC and Chicago.

 

[Mongo]

Who is saying differently? Tell me, who? You continue to completely miss the point. Point out to me where I, or anybody else, ever said that cities like Shanghai or Guangzhou had fewer tall buildings than Toronto. Here's a hint, we never did. OF COURSE they have more, they have been in a construction boom for decades. But AT THIS TIME, Toronto is one of the top ten cities in the world in terms of CURRENT construction, due to the worldwide economic slowdown that has not seriously affected Canada. Why are you so unwilling to admit this?

 

[kkgg7]

Who is saying differently? Tell me, who? You continue to completely miss the point. Point out to me where I, or anybody else, ever said that cities like Shanghai or Guangzhou had fewer tall buildings than Toronto. Here's a hint, we never did. OF COURSE they have more, they have been in a construction boom for decades. But AT THIS TIME, Toronto is one of the top ten cities in the world in terms of CURRENT construction, due to the worldwide economic slowdown that has not seriously affected Canada. Why are you so unwilling to admit this?

actually I have been responding the your very first post as well. There is no way Toronto has the third most buildings over 100 meters under construction at present.

Sorry if my comments often sound annoying, but given all this conceited ignorance about the rest of the world (world outside "North America"), I feel I must tell the truth - that Toronto may be doing relatively better than American and European cities, but there are many cities which are growing much faster. Neither Toronto current stock of highrises nor that under construction, is particularly impressive. Globally, Toronto doesn't stand out as a shining star at all. And if you have been to real big cities, you will know that most of Toronto is essentially suburban in nature and will not be considered highly urban and metropolitan.

 

[ichigo]

Tallest buildings recently completed:
http://www.ctbuh.org/TallBuildings/...Review/tabid/1352/language/en-US/Default.aspx

 

[kkgg7]

Tallest buildings recently completed:
http://www.ctbuh.org/TallBuildings/...Review/tabid/1352/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Toronto doesn't seem to be found anywhere in the charts.

One thing that always feels funny to be is that, Toronto doesn't have many real tall buildings to start with (yea, except in "North America“), nothing taller than 300M, and only a handful over 200M, and somehow many always describe it as a "city of skyscrapers" ... I was like, where are the skyscrapers, those 100-200 meter office buildings in financial district? Even a second/third tiered Chinese city has more skyscrapers than Toronto does.

Toronto may have many nice things, but definitely not a city of skyscrapers. Put height aside, the architecture design is mediocre in general as well. I hope people should have a reality check on that.