News   Jul 08, 2024
 400     1 
News   Jul 08, 2024
 1.1K     7 
News   Jul 08, 2024
 641     0 

Toronto in the World

kk, you had a point when your argument was clear and focused--Toronto is not the fastest growing city in the world and its skyline is not among the tallest in the world. Your mistake was to generalize from the rate of growth in Toronto to its being mediocre/unimportant city in the context of Big World... Then, not surprisingly, you provoked references to quality of life, vibrancy, cultural, and other aspects of everyday life that people think are important too... Talking about world influence, Toronto is rated as Alpha city, with only few cities in the world rated higher... Just some thoughts.

PS CN tower was the WORLD highest for 34 years... and as far as I know Burj Khalifa is not built in your favourite Shanghai, Shenzhen, or Guangzhou.

Points taken. But again, I have some disagreements.
Urban vibrancy in Toronto, again, is only impressive in North America. I am not putting down Toronto just for the sake of argument, not only the vibrancy and pedestrian traffic in big and medium sized Asian cities beat Toronto by miles, if you have ever been there, but also many European cities have much more vibrant and busy streets than Toronto as well, and I am not talking about London and Paris. I am talking about much smaller cities such as Lyon, Nice or Barcelona. Toronto, to a large extent, is still a very car dependent city. There are way too many purely residential areas with nothing else except a Tim Hortons and a corner convenience store.

As to quality of life ... maybe so, I have reservations about this despite the rankings. For one thing, the weather drags it down a lot (although no rankings seem to consider that but it is really important); high housing prices in recent years coupled with low-ish income/high tax/high price on everything has led to reduced purchase power. Median house price stands at somewhere near $450K, when most people make $40-60K before tax. I can't imagine how high the quality of life these people can actually have, unless they have already bought a house 10 years ago, or they pretend buying products is not important at all.

Shanghai and Guangzhou are not my favorite cities. I have been to both and I consider life quality much lower than Toronto's in general, particularly for the lower income. However, I mentioned them because this post is about buildings, and in that aspect, they are a couple of leagues above Toronto. Additionally, it is naive to assume that most Shanghainese live a poor life, they don't. I have a friend in Shanghai, who has two condos totally $1m with no mortgage (yes, they bought earlier than the boom), two cars, the couple makes an after tax income of $60K per year. And they are by no means considered "rich" or "wealthy" in the city but are just middle class. In Shanghai nowadays, a $40-50K annual salary for someone well educated with 5-10 years of work experience is not surprising at all.

And speaking of "culture", Toronto may lead those smallish North American suburbs and towns, but it is silly to assume major Chinese cities have fewer cultural offering. Just because a country is poorer in general does mean it is inferior in every aspect. The country has more than a dozen different regional operas which are very popular among average folks (what music genre originated in Toronto/Canada?). Small theatres are everywhere. Those are Chinese heritage, not something borrowed from Italy or France. The Chinese watch adundant Chinese movies and TV shows, not just those made in a neiboughoring country. Art galaries are burgeoning on every corner of the city. No country can look down upon the cultural offerings of China, not even France or Italy, not to mention the Canadians.

Let's not mix things and give credit to others when they deserve. When we talk about buildings, don't do something like "so what? Quality of life is so much better in Toronto". It makes us provincial minded.
 
Last edited:
Urban vibrancy in Toronto, again, is only impressive in North America. I am not putting down Toronto just for the sake of argument, not only the vibrancy and pedestrian traffic in big and medium sized Asian cities by miles, if you have ever been there, but also many European cities have much more vibrant and busy streets than Toronto as well, and I am not talking about London and Paris. I am talking about much smaller cities such as Lyon, Nice or Barcelona. Toronto, to a large extent, is still a very car dependent city.

>> BS. Toronto is as lively as Lyon or Nice (I've never been to Barcelona.) Nice has a fantastic waterfront and a couple of nice, small parks and some great theatre, but no business district to speak of and, with the notable exception of the two or three streets paralleling the waterfront, nothing to compare to Queen West, the Danforth, Bloor. Lyon is more of a business town than the tourist haven of Nice, and its restaurant scene if legendary, but again, it's a much smaller, concentrated city than Toronto, so while there's a really busy street life in the core and on the hill, it doesn't extend to the 'burbs.

As to quality of life ... maybe so, I have reservations about this despite the rankings. For one thing, the weather drags it down a lot (although no rankings seem to consider that but it is really important); high housing prices in recent years coupled with low-ish income/high tax/high price on everything has led to reduced purchase ability. Median house price stands at somewhere near $450K, when most people make $40-60K. I can't imagine how high the quality of life these people can actually have, unless they have already bought a house 10 years ago.

Seriously? Did you just say that the quality of life in Toronto is bad because of the WEATHER?? (While a tough argument today with the rain, maybe, that's just ridiculous in a city with a beautiful four season weather pattern -- mild winters, warm summers.) That Toronto's quality of life is poor because of high housing prices, but you're comparing to Shanghai/London/Paris (amongst others)?

Let's not mix things and give credit to others when they deserve. When we talk about buildings, don't do something like "so what? Quality of life is so much better in Toronto". It makes us provincial minded.

I'd say it's a lot more provincial-minded to rubbish Toronto for no particular reason. Makes you seem self-hating.
 
Just an FYI because I saw a comment somewhere that suggested Toronto wasn't as globally important as many Chinese cities..

Alpha

Alpha++ world cities:

London, New York

Alpha+ world cities:

Chicago, Dubai, Hong Kong, Paris, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo

Alpha world cities:

Amsterdam, Beijing, Brussels, Buenos Aires, Frankfurt, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Los Angeles, Madrid, Mexico City, Milan, Moscow, Mumbai, San Francisco, Sao Paulo, Seoul, Toronto and Washington

So as of 2010, the only Chinese cities deemed more globally relevant than Toronto are Hong Kong (obvious) and Shanghai (also given), with Beijing at the same level. Tokyo and Singapore are the other 2 "Asian" cities above Toronto, and I'm not sure why Dubai is up there, considering it's pretty much just a glorified Mississauga..

Considering those cities are located in countries much more populated than Canada (with the exception of Singapore, which is the size of Toronto but spent centuries as the staple of the Dutch trading empire before becoming its own state), and the population of the cities themselves far larger than Toronto, that's very impressive.

Yes, Toronto doesn't have a supertall. Developers and Architects here seem to be much more conservative, and a big fan of "playing it safe" as opposed to doing anything outside of the box. The city is still incredibly built up considering the size of the country, and especially considering it really only became relevant in the late 70's (previously being a "Second City" to Montreal). What the city is doing is globally impressive, even though it's not happening at the same rate as the cities of 10+ million people, and it is widely acknowledged outside Canada as being impressive, especially in the country we have been talking about, China and even Japan.
 
Appreciate kkgg7 for being the devil's advocate. Toronto has been provincial minded for as long as I remember. It references itself against the world, and that's what youngish places do. But there's more to Toronto than that, as others have been quick to assert. At this point, I'd say that Toronto is a city of many , many parts, - whether, ( and how ), it's getting to the point where it's greater than the sum of those parts is what we're interested in. Think of a time when Toronto could ever be as self-referential as a Paris or New York.
 
These Brave New Worldish rankings are pretty sensitive to the arbitrary weights their authors give to the factors they employ. The last post had a ranking that put Sydney above Washington, which seems a bit of a stretch. I mean, whether we like or despise the US, Washington is still the capital of a global empire, while Sydney is more of a richer, grown-up version of Toronto with a better climate and setting. I'm not sure that any one ranking of cities is particularly informative.
 
These Brave New Worldish rankings are pretty sensitive to the arbitrary weights their authors give to the factors they employ. The last post had a ranking that put Sydney above Washington, which seems a bit of a stretch. I mean, whether we like or despise the US, Washington is still the capital of a global empire, while Sydney is more of a richer, grown-up version of Toronto with a better climate and setting. I'm not sure that any one ranking of cities is particularly informative.

The list that I provided was cities that are "deemed to be an important node tot he global economic system". So that would explain Sydney above Washington, because it is more financial centre.
 
That's interesting given the fact that the headquarters of the IMF and the World Bank are both in DC. Sydney is certainly a large domestic financial centre in a mid-sized economy, but it's hard to see how it has much more of a global presence than Toronto in that industry. Do you know the measure the survey used to determine Sydney's ranking?
 
Appreciate kkgg7 for being the devil's advocate. ....
:) I think he's done a good job in that respect! One flow I noticed he assumed that the board's members "situational awareness" is a bit too local in scope... My impression is that the opposite is true: many of us did travel and lived in other places outside of North America and do judge Toronto in the context of rapidly changing world... I grew up in St. Petersburg (another great and vibrant city), I happen to travel a lot (Europe, Middle East, South America, Australia) and the only place I still need to go to is China (hopefully next year!!). I think it is a mistake to judge the importance of Toronto by some superficial (albeit highly visible) attributes, such as number of new skyscrapers or length of subway lines. It reminds me one of visiting relatives who found Toronto "too provincial" to his taste. He pointed out to old wooden telegraph posts, narrow pedestrian walkways, some core streets with run-down two-storey buildings, inefficient subway system... I guess you need to spend more than a few weeks in Toronto to appreciate it for what it is... We already mentioned vibrancy, diversity, top-notch banking system, highly educated citizens, list goes on and on... I am in the R&D field and I know first hand that Toronto is cutting edge in that respect, definitely much more important than any Asian city (number of important discoveries, patents, high-impact scientific publications, medical breakthrough, etc.). Toronto is not London and it doesn't have to be one and it doesn't need to be ashamed of it.
 
Even New York and London navel gaze about how world class they are. It's not something cities outgrow or a sign of provincialism.

These Brave New Worldish rankings are pretty sensitive to the arbitrary weights their authors give to the factors they employ. The last post had a ranking that put Sydney above Washington, which seems a bit of a stretch. I mean, whether we like or despise the US, Washington is still the capital of a global empire, while Sydney is more of a richer, grown-up version of Toronto with a better climate and setting. I'm not sure that any one ranking of cities is particularly informative.
Sydney isn't richer than Toronto. It ranks lower in GDP. Toronto has a bigger GDP than most of the Chinese giants, although I'm sure that'll change as China grows.
 
GaWC studies

The first attempt to define, categorize, and rank global cities using 'relational data' was made in 1998 by Jon Beaverstock, Richard G Smith and Peter Taylor, who all worked at that time at Loughborough University in the United Kingdom. Together they established the Globalization and World Cities Research Network. A roster of world cities was outlined in the GaWC Research Bulletin 5 and ranked cities based on their connectivity through four "advanced producer services": accountancy, advertising, banking/finance, and law.[5] The GaWC inventory identifies three levels of global cities and several sub-ranks. This roster generally denotes cities in which there are offices of certain multinational corporations providing financial and consulting services rather than denoting other cultural, political, and economic centres.

The 2004 rankings acknowledged several new indicators while continuing to rank city economics more heavily than political or cultural factors. The 2008 roster, similar to the 1998 version, is sorted into categories of "Alpha" world cities (with four sub-categories), "Beta" world cities (three sub-categories), "Gamma" world cities (three sub-categories), and additional cities with "High sufficiency" or "Sufficiency" world city presence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city#GaWC_studies

This is all coming from the Wikipedia page for "Global City", though this isn't some edit made by a bored 14 year old, as I have learned the same sort of thing at University.

It also has this table, which gives a ranking and score:

Rank City Score
1 United States New York City 6.22
2 United Kingdom London 5.86
3 Japan Tokyo 5.42
4 France Paris 5.35
5 Hong Kong Hong Kong 4.14
6 United States Chicago 3.94
7 United States Los Angeles 3.90
8 Singapore Singapore 3.45
9 Australia Sydney 3.44
10 South Korea Seoul 3.40
11 Belgium Brussels 3.29
12 United States San Francisco 3.26
13 United States Washington, D.C. 3.25
14 Canada Toronto 3.13
15 China Beijing 3.12
16 Germany Berlin 3.03
17 Spain Madrid 3.02
18 Austria Vienna 2.96
19 United States Boston 2.78
20 Germany Frankfurt 2.78
20 China Shanghai 2.78
22 Argentina Buenos Aires 2.73
23 Sweden Stockholm 2.71
24 Switzerland Zurich 2.68
25 Russia Moscow 2.61
26 Spain Barcelona 2.57
27 United Arab Emirates Dubai 2.56
28 Italy Rome 2.56
29 Netherlands Amsterdam 2.54
30 Mexico Mexico City 2.41
 
Even New York and London navel gaze about how world class they are. It's not something cities outgrow or a sign of provincialism.


Sydney isn't richer than Toronto. It ranks lower in GDP. Toronto has a bigger GDP than most of the Chinese giants, although I'm sure that'll change as China grows.

How about GDP per capita? Sydney's public realm is certainly a lot less shabby and run down than Toronto's and its house prices are a lot higher.
 
Toronto has a bigger GDP than most of the Chinese giants, although I'm sure that'll change as China grows.

well, you would need to wait. Power houses like Shanghai have been growing by 12% for the past decade, and don't forget the Chinese currency will definitely appreciate significantly within the next 5 years. Additionally, economy of Chinese cities can be much larger than official stats, considering the size of underground economy there.

On the other hand, if GDP is the golden rule about the standing of a city, then according the wikipedia,Toronto has a GDP of 253 Bn, compared with

NYC 1406
LA 792
Chicago 574
Philly 388
DC 375
Boston 363
Dallas 338
Atlanta 304
San Fran 301
Houston 297
Miami 292
Detroit 253
Seattle 235

So Toronto would be the 13th largest in North America, exactly the same as Detroit we despise so much, and less than half of Chicago, which we think Toronto is comparable with, and much smaller than Boston, which we think is too small for comparison.
 
Alvin,



The same goes with Chinese megacities, which are breeding grounds for the future of Asia, at least. Hopefully we will never have the density that in my opinion plagues them, but the way they build their cities will mark humanity forever - an experiment in living untried anywhere in the West but NYC.

It is a common mistake to think China/Asia has the density that nobody wants. The United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Belgium are all more dense than China. I am not including micro states here such as Luxemburg etc. So no, high density is not some sort of invention in Asia. Both west Europe and Asia, which dominate the world in different times, are very very dense. It is the US and Canada (and Australia) that are the exceptions, because these are the new worlds.

Again, typical "North-America" mindset, always assuming what happens in the US and Canada is the norm and anything else is exceptional.

You mentioned high density is an experiment untried anywhere in the West but NYC --- really?
What is considered "the west"? US and Canada? NYC's density is about 10000/sq km, while some other west cities:

Paris: 20,980
Athens: 19,235
Barcelona: 15,991
Monaco: 15,142
Moscow: 10,588
Buchaest: 8,449
Budapest: 8,374
Naples: 8,183

Again, you think the west = US + Canada.

Third, first you claim high density is a bad thing we should avoid, then your only exception NYC happens to be unarguably the greatest city in North America, economically and culturally. Seems density is NOT a bad thing.
 
Last edited:
I'd say it's a lot more provincial-minded to rubbish Toronto for no particular reason. Makes you seem self-hating.

Honestly, no one outside Toronto world think Toronto is actually more important than Beijing.
Beijing is the capital of the world's most populous and fastest growing country, the second largest economy in the world.
Toronto... is the capital of the Province of Ontario and the largest city in not so large Canada.
When world policy is made, do they ask for Beijing's opinion or rather Toronto's? Toronto + Ottawa would not be as important as Beijing.
 

Back
Top