Toronto in decline..... (Back in MY day we had respect!)

[Fresh Start]

So being a 10-year-old child at the time gives you enough perspective to create this comparison?

Yes. (Also a lot of my core beliefs are influenced by the accounts of people that I associate with.)

I was born in 1982 and I couldn't tell you much from the decade except for what happened in my community. I retrospect though, I think Canada was probably better off in the Mulroney years than the Chrétien years. Our economy didn't suck back then, everybody wasn't all paranoid about ID theft, school shootings, terrorism, online predators, "PC" crap, job outsourcing - and when you phoned customer service, you actually talked to someone in Canada that spoke clear English, we weren't scared about the big 3 automakers collapsing, etc. Yeah, the 80s were really fun and carefree and it's too bad I was born 15-20 years too late to really be a part of it.

My older friends and relatives don't remember in 1985 a person in Canada having to compete with someone in another country for a wage. In 1985, they didn't recall people having to work all hours of the evening or overnight just to make a living either. We are in an economic depression. I do not remember that happening in the 1980s - mid 1990s. A few hiccups sure, but nothing on this scale. Also medical, insurance, and gas were very inexpensive. The 90s felt good too to a lot of people because so many of the fears that had come to a head in the 80s seemed to be receding: the Cold War, recessions, unemployment, and people coming off welfare rolls.

The 1980s were a major turning point in many ways but at least back then - there was still some common sense i.e. 20% down; starter "existing” home; 30-year fixed rate mortgage; people actually wore clothes that fit them and those that had children actually knew how to discipline them and teach them how to be adults; greed with everything was not running un-regulated and rampant everywhere and it goes on and on. People could afford a home in the 1980s. And people who built houses were paid 25-30 bucks an hour. But those days are gone.

Everything today is "me, me" - be impressed with me!

Yup - so many couples - like in two people w/ no children or pets - need brand new 2500+ sq ft homes (first home must be brand new - starter home - what is that??); brand new SUVs; go all over the world on vacations; eat out all the time - easy credit has meant easy times and now the house of cards has come down. Today salaries are in the toilet and everything is either pirated or made in China leaving no margins to support the workforce. People now grow up with such a sense of entitlement, offense is taken with any perceived slight.

Our entertainment industry has been on a slippery slide to the bottom of the moral ladder for a long time (possibly beginning in the late 80s with Madonna). There are some things I miss about the 80s/90s - better television, instant cult classics at the movies, and the proliferation of youth tribes - the New Romantics, the punks, the Goths, the hair metallers et al. Youth culture today seems so homogenized, pretentious and fake by comparison. In comparison to the music of the 80s and 90s, today’s music largely sucks. Over-produced, over-commercialized, with that horrible, clean, pink-and-silver crystalline sound and lip-synched vocals. The 80s at least were before American Idol and boy bands ... music still existed. If you wanted decent music in the 00s, you had to look beyond the Top 100 and go indie. That's another thing I miss about the 80s/early 90s - indie was actually indie.

Because the way the world is now, the 2010s are no time for a child to grow up or try to afford college. And if I could get into Doc Emmett Brown's Delorian, I would go back to the 80's in a heartbeat!

 

[Tuxxer]

Yes. (Also a lot of my core beliefs are influenced by the accounts of people that I associate with.)

I was born in 1982 and I couldn't tell you much from the decade except for what happened in my community. I retrospect though, I think Canada was probably better off in the Mulroney years than the Chrétien years. Our economy didn't suck back then, everybody wasn't all paranoid about ID theft, school shootings, terrorism, online predators, "PC" crap, job outsourcing - and when you phoned customer service, you actually talked to someone in Canada that spoke clear English, we weren't scared about the big 3 automakers collapsing, etc. Yeah, the 80s were really fun and carefree and it's too bad I was born 15-20 years too late to really be a part of it.

In 82, we were coming off a recession that quite a few people were saying should have been called a depression. Your other points, our economy very much did suck till about 86 and then started to pick up steam. That person you talked too on the phone, if you could get a hold of them ,might have spoken in a very broken french or english. Chrysler had already had its first bail out and was able to get back on its feet with the introduction of the mini van. Political Correctness and outsourcing had already begun, much of the tier three auto suppliers were coming online at this point to replace what the big three were cleaving off , reducing the union footprint.

My older friends and relatives don't remember in 1985 a person in Canada having to compete with someone in another country for a wage. In 1985, they didn't recall people having to work all hours of the evening or overnight just to make a living either. We are in an economic depression. I do not remember that happening in the 1980s - mid 1990s. A few hiccups sure, but nothing on this scale. Also medical, insurance, and gas were very inexpensive. The 90s felt good too to a lot of people because so many of the fears that had come to a head in the 80s seemed to be receding: the Cold War, recessions, unemployment, and people coming off welfare rolls.

I think anyone that grew up in the 80's might take exception to the claim that gas and insurance were cheaper. But again, sorry, the 24 hour seven day work week came into being in the 80's. The fight at that time was to be able to open a business on sundays, was a big deal at the time.

The 1980s were a major turning point in many ways but at least back then - there was still some common sense i.e. 20% down; starter "existing†home; 30-year fixed rate mortgage; people actually wore clothes that fit them and those that had children actually knew how to discipline them and teach them how to be adults; greed with everything was not running un-regulated and rampant everywhere and it goes on and on. People could afford a home in the 1980s. And people who built houses were paid 25-30 bucks an hour. But those days are gone.

I cant speak to the housing issue, only someone that actually bought a house in the eighties can speak to that, as there was the starter houses that let people move up and out and then there was the flipping going on that eventually crashed. Some folks walked away with alot of money and others crashed and burned. Too bad you never seen girls doing up their jeans with a pair of pliers, lol. Regarding dicipline, your viewing the 80's through funny looking lens, it was no better and no worse than it is today, simply depended on the individual parents.

Everything today is "me, me" - be impressed with me!

Watch the original wall street, lol

Greed is good

Yup - so many couples - like in two people w/ no children or pets - need brand new 2500+ sq ft homes (first home must be brand new - starter home - what is that??); brand new SUVs; go all over the world on vacations; eat out all the time - easy credit has meant easy times and now the house of cards has come down. Today salaries are in the toilet and everything is either pirated or made in China leaving no margins to support the workforce. People now grow up with such a sense of entitlement, offense is taken with any perceived slight.

Today they are called dinks, in the eighties they were called yuppies and in the eighties, the cheap shit was japanese and they were gonna take over the world, its not really any different.

Our entertainment industry has been on a slippery slide to the bottom of the moral ladder for a long time (possibly beginning in the late 80s with Madonna). There are some things I miss about the 80s/90s - better television, instant cult classics at the movies, and the proliferation of youth tribes - the New Romantics, the punks, the Goths, the hair metallers et al. Youth culture today seems so homogenized, pretentious and fake by comparison. In comparison to the music of the 80s and 90s, today’s music largely sucks. Over-produced, over-commercialized, with that horrible, clean, pink-and-silver crystalline sound and lip-synched vocals. The 80s at least were before American Idol and boy bands ... music still existed. If you wanted decent music in the 00s, you had to look beyond the Top 100 and go indie. That's another thing I miss about the 80s/early 90s - indie was actually indie.

Music and pop culture is too personal to objectify as being better or worse in any given generation. You had to be there to hear people that grew up in the seventies and sixties talking about eighties music and the appocalypse.

Because the way the world is now, the 2010s are no time for a child to grow up or try to afford college. And if I could get into Doc Emmett Brown's Delorian, I would go back to the 80's in a heartbeat!

So would I, the original poster had complained about Toronto being too dirty. To me , its too friggen anti sceptic. The city that you remember was actually six separate citys that allocated money differently to different prioritys. None of the downloading had occured so the province was taking care of other stuff , allowing the citys to deal with the more urban concerns based on what their voters wanted.

Progress is based on friction and a certain amount of darwinism and it shows with every decade.

Declan

 

[adma]

Funny thing is: I seem to recall in the 70s and 80s a lot more nonchalant women in "revealing" clothing (no bras et al). Indeed, I'd argue that today's dwelling upon celebrity upskirts, downblouses, nip slips et al have been a powerful dissuasive factor--the only ones disenfranchised being everyday secret male pervs. (They don't make casual sexual harrassment like they used to.)

 

[Glen]

Toronto is not in decline. I don't think that argument can legitimately be made. It's attracting immigrants, neighbourhoods are gentrifying, housing prices are rising, the population is increasing, key industries are doing well and expanding, people are being attracted downtown, unemployment is manageable, vacant or underused land is being developed, the downtown core is intensifying, there are more festivals than ever, major investment in cultural institutions, a recent boom in class A office space, and so on. And in my neighbourhood, people are very friendly.

Toronto is attracting fewer immigrants. They are more likely to settle in the 905 municipalities today. Housing is being created but is that surprised with developers being subsidised and residents paying less than marginal costs for service. Unemployment is now at 10.4% in the city and growing. The recent boom in office development was a result of tax breaks and followed twenty years of near stagnation, in boom times. The myopia in this thread is like that seen just before the housing bubble collapsed in the US.

 

[Glen]

No, it's not. You've offered statements. Prove to me, by some method, that there are more cigarette butts in the street today than in say, 1984 or 1974. I simply don't believe you. And the larger, far more important customer of not smoking in public places, in which dramatic change for the better that actually affects the lives of people, you ignore. The denial is all yours. Offer me proof.

Kensington Market sans graffiti.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHonho45OBM&feature=player_embedded

 

[Tewder]

Last week I was walking along Queen West near Spadina and I saw a young topless woman holding a microphone and talking in front of a camera. I think she was a news reporter or something, but didn't notice which channel it was. Anyways, I thought it was awesome. I'm glad my generation isn't full of prudes.

You would have to have a value system based on anything other than complete self-indulgence to be a 'prude'. The social struggles of previous generations instilled in you the blessing of personal freedoms but unfortunately not the collective, social civilities/responsibilities that come along with them. Shame.

...so here is the pudding, so to speak. You will not be around in say, 20-30 years, and our generation (TGT, GM, myself and others) will clean up your mess and raise our kids the way WE like.

My guess is that you would all pretty much 'starve' on that pudding... I mean, your generation is going to 'clean up' a mess? Your generation is going to achieve anything? You're all too busy sexting, surfing and playing mindless video games to do anything collective, anything meaningful or anything bigger than yourselves... nevermind actually raising children. LOL, that's rich!

What it seems is that...you are a douche.

... and this is sort of where you undermine your point, completely. There is a more civil and polite way to disagree with somebody else's viewpoint. Not that we should be surprised by such a vacuous retort from some of the young'uns around here. It is probably just a ritalin dosage that has gone out of whack. Might we suggest a time-out with no video games or computers until you can interract civilly with others again?...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

My guess is that you would all pretty much 'starve' on that pudding... I mean, your generation is going to 'clean up' a mess? Your generation is going to achieve anything? You're all too busy sexting, surfing and playing mindless video games to do anything collective, anything meaningful or anything bigger than yourselves... nevermind actually raising children. LOL, that's rich!

My generation isn't having kids, just pets and MMORPG characters. Imagine how rare first cousins will be amongst the next generation...

 

[Transportfan]

No Toronto is not in decline, although western society (of which Toronto is a part) is in moral decline.

Someboby else on UT actually believes this? Wow!

 

[Coltaine79]

tkip, I can take all your criticisms and transport them to a forum focussed on NYC or LA or Chicago or London and post them in a thread titled "%Insert_City_Name% is in decline!"

Doesn't that tell you something? You're not really criticising Toronto, you're criticising western society as a whole. That's a completely different topic, and not really suited for this particular forum
Maybe if you posted using that approach you would get a different reception than you do now.

 

[Coltaine79]

Yes. (Also a lot of my core beliefs are influenced by the accounts of people that I associate with.)

I was born in 1982 and I couldn't tell you much from the decade except for what happened in my community. I retrospect though, I think Canada was probably better off in the Mulroney years than the Chrétien years. Our economy didn't suck back then, everybody wasn't all paranoid about ID theft, school shootings, terrorism, online predators, "PC" crap, job outsourcing - and when you phoned customer service, you actually talked to someone in Canada that spoke clear English, we weren't scared about the big 3 automakers collapsing, etc. Yeah, the 80s were really fun and carefree and it's too bad I was born 15-20 years too late to really be a part of it.

You were a child in the 80's, so the threat of nuclear annihilation did not seem as dire to you as it did to grown-ups! This kinda undermines your whole point.

My older friends and relatives don't remember in 1985 a person in Canada having to compete with someone in another country for a wage. In 1985, they didn't recall people having to work all hours of the evening or overnight just to make a living either. We are in an economic depression. I do not remember that happening in the 1980s - mid 1990s.

No... it was worse. This is something you use statistics and facts to back, not the memory of a 5-7-year old!

On the subject of not having to compete with other countries; how dare those "third world countries" for ridding themselves of centralized/planned economies (a.k.a communism) and joining the rest of the planet with capitalist, market-oriented economies! They should have stayed in poverty forever so we could have enjoyed the easy 80's life, eh?

Everything today is "me, me" - be impressed with me!

That was easily the mantra of the 70's and 80's.

The only thing I agree with in your entire rant is the part about music. The 80's was the era of good pop music. That's it. For everything else you've said... it's very easy to tell you're mixing the diluted memory of a 5-7 year old (hey, not my fault you posted your age) with the memory and knowledge of a 28-year old. Maybe you should consider reading some economic and political history with regards to the latter half of the 20th century, so you have a better idea of what really happened, instead of relying upon "Back to the Future".

 

[monetto]

The premise of this thread is not completely off base, but it has been very poorly formulated and presented. It seems like the thread starter took some of his personal pet peeves and then generalized them to Toronto is in decline/western society is in decline, which reeks of the typical old-man lamentation that's been going on generation after generation.

However, the underlying claim that society has been changing, and that these changed have, at best, been a mixed bag, is essentially true. Its just that nobody got past the symptoms.

An obvious change is the way we communicate with one another, increasingly using technology as an intermediary, and these affect both youth and adults equally, though the dynamics are quite different. Just do give a couple of examples, social media allows people today to play celebrity in a virtual world with hundreds of completely worthless "friends" all the while losing touch with the social norms which govern normal, physical, personal interaction. Lifestyle advertising melds advertising and entertainment and use this infotainment to segment the collective psyche and channel it into respective niche markets into which they can be best exploited as consumers.

On the upside, increased levels of communication have allowed for more tolerance for minorities and greater levels of indirect political activism. I think that overall, as a society, we are living more and more in the virtual and thus more "social" and "involved" in an abstract sense, all the while losing our touch with the physical realities of or world (and this is where the thread starter's complaints would come into play). There is another layer to place on this, namely the urban-suburban divide, whereby suburbanites tend to dwell more in the abstract world created by our media, while individuals living in urban environments tend to experience a greater deal of hard reality.

I may not agree that society is in decline, but it is definitely changing.

 

[Second_in_pie]

My guess is that you would all pretty much 'starve' on that pudding... I mean, your generation is going to 'clean up' a mess? Your generation is going to achieve anything? You're all too busy sexting, surfing and playing mindless video games to do anything collective, anything meaningful or anything bigger than yourselves... nevermind actually raising children. LOL, that's rich!

Wow, what a hilariously ignorant comment.

Someboby else on UT actually believes this? Wow!

Is that meaning that you do as well? Or a sarcastic "haha what an idiot"?

 

[Tewder]

Wow, what a hilariously ignorant comment.

Just thought I would add mine to all the others

Seriously though, even if ignorantly, things are never black and white. I find that a lot of the younger people I interact with are extremely creative, open-minded and tolerant, and most of the criticisms I would have of the generally declining levels of social civility among them - though in a broad-stroke sense only of course, if I must spell this out - could probably be more aptly directed at a previous generation of parents and changes in society in general, which really has nothing to do with the young at all, to be fair.... and not that this negates the negative visceral reactions that 'older' people feel. Generations collide. Always have and always will.

 

[GenerationW]

No, but we can see where the last generation seriously wrong and in general seem to be more questioning and ready to tackle these issues than the boomers. Obvious reason for that, the Boomers won't be living with the consequences of their actions and have been socialized into that ideology. Doesn't make them evil or stupid, just in the wrong place at the wrong time (so to speak.)

30 years from now, when you realize you have solved precious little, you too can take your place among the failed generations.

 

[Second_in_pie]

30 years from now, when you realize you have solved precious little, you too can take your place among the failed generations.

I'd prefer to do that than mess things up for generations to come through a gluttonous and wasteful lifestyle.