Toronto Hydro: PowerUp Infrastructure Improvement Program

[simply Dan]

You don't see very many overhead wires in Montreal... if they can bury them all, certainly Toronto can.

 

[allabootmatt]

Maybe a spin-off Facebook group would help get the ball rolling?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

quebec city will be the first city in canada to have large scale fibre to the home infrastructure installed by bell for the specific reason that their lines are above ground. our mix of aerial and burial was a shot in the foot to upgrading our infrastructure. who knows how long toronto's large scale FTTH roll out will be delayed due to some of our buried infrastructure. burial can be a hindrance to improvements.

 

[Tza]

As for Bell's FTTH program in Ontario. The first places you will being seeing it as per the pilot project is in new subdivisions in Peel / Halton / York Region and Ottawa. These services will all be buried as well. It is suppose to start in the very near future, can't announce exact dates. As for Toronto getting FTTH, it will be sooner than other places in Ontario for the reason that Bell has almost completly finished their FTTN (fibre to the node) project in the 416. Most of this was completed prior the xmas 09.

As for the hydro, the pole replacement program is the only way to go in many areas of Toronto. The costs associated with burying new Hydro is ridiculously high as all primary/secondary cables must be installed in concrete encased structures which can be next to impossible in lots of these neighbourhoods due to its size and where it would need to be placed in proximity to existing infrastructure. That said, it would take nearly forever considering Toronto Hydro has only 3 civil contractors that they use due to expertise, experience and manpower. Another issue with poles is many of them are joint use and are shared with other utilities such as Bell, Rogers, Cogeco, Telus, Allstream, Atria. That said all utilities would have to be relocated at the said time and in agreance with all parties (including BIA, City, etc). There has been many attempts at this in the past but Nimby's have been to blame as they bitch and whine with all the different utility crews needed to complete the work.

Personally, in older neighbourhoods I like the look of wooden poles as it adds character to already distinct areas.

 

[Tewder]

As for the hydro, the pole replacement program is the only way to go in many areas of Toronto. The costs associated with burying new Hydro is ridiculously high as all primary/secondary cables must be installed in concrete encased structures which can be next to impossible in lots of these neighbourhoods due to its size and where it would need to be placed in proximity to existing infrastructure.

... which is why you do not see burried poles in the thirld world, but in Toronto?

That said, it would take nearly forever considering Toronto Hydro has only 3 civil contractors that they use due to expertise, experience and manpower. Another issue with poles is many of them are joint use and are shared with other utilities such as Bell, Rogers, Cogeco, Telus, Allstream, Atria. That said all utilities would have to be relocated at the said time and in agreance with all parties (including BIA, City, etc). There has been many attempts at this in the past but Nimby's have been to blame as they bitch and whine with all the different utility crews needed to complete the work.

I don't see this as one single project so much as an ongoing policy. When an area like Roncesvalles for example is being dug up it makes sense to burry the poles... but this requires having a policy and stragety in place which involves leadership, vision and a mandate for all the entities concerned, i.e. Bell, Cogeco etc. Those entities makes 'lots' of money. They should be obligated to give back too.

Many other cities appear to be able to manage and afford this so why in Toronto do we view it as so impossible?

Personally, in older neighbourhoods I like the look of wooden poles as it adds character to already distinct areas.

Can we preserve a few poles to satisfy those who like the frontier look?

 

[Tza]

Tewder, your comments about Toronto being 3rd world due to its aerial infrastructure I find funny? Majority of Canada's hydro and telecommunication infrastructure is all aerial. Since you think everything is buried I am going to make the assumption you live in the suburbs??

Only recently is everything buried, such as in new subdivisions due to the introduction of joint use trenching which has only been common in the past 25yrs. Because of coordination between utility providers have they been able to set them up together in order not to take up an overwhelming amount of space underground. This is why they have space constraints with burying new networks downtown as space is already occupied by existing and previosly abandoned utilities. Yes, they may do it in other cities but they do not have the complexity of Toronto's infrastructure. For instance, the NE corner of Bay-Adelaide is the most heavily cabled telecommunications area in North America. The amount of space occupied by the multiples of Bell structures is amazing and something to be marvelled at if ever seen by the eye.

Back to my previous point, most utilities are governed by csa and require both vertical and horizontal clearances. This is all set in place for good reason. You do not want stray voltage jumping from a primary hydro cable to a 16" super high pressure steel gas main just because there is a faulty ground.

 

[Tewder]

Tewder, your comments about Toronto being 3rd world due to its aerial infrastructure I find funny? Majority of Canada's hydro and telecommunication infrastructure is all aerial. Since you think everything is buried I am going to make the assumption you live in the suburbs??

Yes, but in a very old neighbourhood that is over two hundred years old. However, I'm not talking about Toronto in contrast to its surroundings, which would be parochial, but about Toronto in contrast to other major cities, all of which must have similarly complicated infrastructures, if not more so.

Only recently is everything buried, such as in new subdivisions due to the introduction of joint use trenching which has only been common in the past 25yrs. Because of coordination between utility providers have they been able to set them up together in order not to take up an overwhelming amount of space underground. This is why they have space constraints with burying new networks downtown as space is already occupied by existing and previosly abandoned utilities. Yes, they may do it in other cities but they do not have the complexity of Toronto's infrastructure. For instance, the NE corner of Bay-Adelaide is the most heavily cabled telecommunications area in North America. The amount of space occupied by the multiples of Bell structures is amazing and something to be marvelled at if ever seen by the eye.

Back to my previous point, most utilities are governed by csa and require both vertical and horizontal clearances. This is all set in place for good reason. You do not want stray voltage jumping from a primary hydro cable to a 16" super high pressure steel gas main just because there is a faulty ground.

I'm not suggesting we start and complete this next year, for the whole city. I'm talking about an ongoing policy that moves towards upgrading and burrying this infrastructure as an improvement to the public realm. It'll have to be done some day. Lets not make the same mistake with this as we have with mass transit, which is to say ignoring the needs of the future and creating bigger problems later on.

Again, Roncesvalles is the perfect case in point and the one I would use to challenge your position: Why would lines not be burried when the street is being dug up to start with? Obviously there is no policy in place to do this regardless of the context, and that is the issue as I see it.

 

[spider]

Only recently is everything buried, such as in new subdivisions due to the introduction of joint use trenching which has only been common in the past 25yrs.

Buried Joint Use construction was the standard method of servicing new subdivisions here in Toronto as far back as the mid '60s.

Front lot aerial service was used in the event lots were 30' or so less in width because the interface between the homes and the cabling (the most vulnerable point in the design) was more numerous per a given length of street. Telephone drop wires to homes were custom factory built to fit a given street layout with the splices (encapsulations) located under lawns rather than driveways.

The expense of replacing Aerial service with Buried service is not as much material as labour. The service entrances to your home are almost always at a place that is now paved, replacement requires a lot of repaving and/or rearrangements in your home. This is worst when replacing back yard aerial with buried services on the street. Municipalities restrict mechanical trenching near trees and demand that driveways not be cut.

I am not making excuses for the Utilities, just a retired Bell engineering guy trying to explain the costs they face.

 

[Tza]

Spider, thanks for the addtional info. I too use to work for Bell. Were you an IM? You are completely right about the restrictions set out by the municipalities. As we know, a crew can bang out 6-8 aerials drops a day with $0 restoration costs and minimal equipment whereas to trench/drill a bsw takes much more equipment, materials, etc and at the most a crew would only get 2-3 done a day.

As for joint use being used in Toronto, it may have been done in some areas but not widespread. I can think of many residential neighbourhoods in North Scarborough built in the early 80's where the Bell specifically in not in JU trench and more so, located on the oppsite side of the street from the hydro and gas.

Tewder, I agree that change needs to be made but what I am saying is pole replacement needs to be done now due to life span. Plans are most likely to bury eventually but they can only do so much each year with the funds that are provided to them by the gov't. Unfortunately, price of hydro is regulated which means that money attributed to rehab work comes from the powers to be and not from the consumers monthly hydro bill.

As for Roncesvalles, we do not know if they will not end up burying the hydro once the work starts for sidewalk / curb reconstruction. So far, the work completed by Comer & Varcon was for water main replacement. This only requires excavation of the roadway. When (and if) the hydro is buried it will be under the sidewalk for the purpose of tie-in services to handwells for street lights and positioning of manhole lids for hydro vaults. They are probably just waiting for the green light from the City's engineers before they announce their plans. A lot of the time, it is excluded from the original call documents since finalization is not complete at the time. I agree though that the coordination between the City and the utility companies is absolutely horrible.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

tza, not to get off topic, but when can we expect bell to start and complete FTTH in toronto?

 

[Tza]

tza, not to get off topic, but when can we expect bell to start and complete FTTH in toronto?

Couldn't tell you unfortunately as I do not work for Bell anymore. They like the keep most things very hush hush to the public until they are ready to unveil. Therefore, I will not know until the work orders start coming through. Once it is in place though I will let you know.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

i hope we hear an announcement soon.

do you think they'll still keep the existing copper infrastructure from the COs to people's homes once fibre comes to town? will we have both copper and fibre service to premises? one for pots, one for internet? or will they scrap the copper lines?

 

[Tza]

i hope we hear an announcement soon.

do you think they'll still keep the existing copper infrastructure from the COs to people's homes once fibre comes to town? will we have both copper and fibre service to premises? one for pots, one for internet? or will they scrap the copper lines?

We will not have both copper and fibre services to the house once introduced. When the individual service is replaced to a home it will be a single pr fibre and no copper. For replacement purposes, It will be tricky project as the demarcation boxes on the house, building, etc will have to be replaced to accomadate the fibre (main reason why new construction homes will be the first to have FTTH). Another issue at hand will be a need for fibre splicers for beyond what is currently available. It will definately be interesting to see how the unions and market adapt to these changes. However, do not plan to see copper phased out of the CO's anytime soon.

 

[spider]

Almost all areas of the 416 region are now equipped to use Fibre to the the existing junction box and existing copper to your home. The copper from the box to your home will most likely never be replaced with fibre if your existing service is buried.

Tza, I was a lineman, splicer, contract inspector and engineering manager in my 30 years with Bell. I did almost everything but install a phone.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

We will not have both copper and fibre services to the house once introduced. When the individual service is replaced to a home it will be a single pr fibre and no copper. For replacement purposes, It will be tricky project as the demarcation boxes on the house, building, etc will have to be replaced to accomadate the fibre (main reason why new construction homes will be the first to have FTTH). Another issue at hand will be a need for fibre splicers for beyond what is currently available. It will definately be interesting to see how the unions and market adapt to these changes. However, do not plan to see copper phased out of the CO's anytime soon.

if they get rid of the copper, it will pose a challenge with regards to power outages. at least when the power goes out now, i have telephone service and DSL (yes, my modem is on a battery backup). are we going to have to need battery backups for every customer to keep the phones & internet alive in a power outage? that's alot of batteries!

i'd rather have both fibre and copper service my home. maybe they can use a hybrid service drop that has 2 copper pairs and fibre in one cable. i like the idea of being connected to a battery bank at the CO. maybe they can power the fibre network on the end user side with the copper POTS system.

i say bring on the overhead lines! as long as it's kept neat.