Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Dan416]

I don't think anyone has seriously suggested that Hurontario be a BRT route? I understand the province is penny-pinching, but it's the most important corridor in Mississauga and not giving Mississauga at least one LRT would look really bad on the McGuinty government. Hamilton and Mississauga have made their case for LRT. It's out of our hands. But I think they run a real risk of unhappy politicians and residents if they go against the municipal leaders' recommendations.

 

[Fresh Start]

Can you see why I always get drum118 and doady confused? lol. they both say Sherway is not a good place for MT routes. They convinced me a long time ago that Sherway ultimately provides no benefit to MT routes (unless the subway goes further west). Nobody knows MT like drum and doady. Not even me! So can we finally put to rest the idea of Sherway being some kind of regional transit terminal, Fresh Start?

Well I'm just giving you my opinion, just like they are free to give their's. What the operators do in the end, is out of all of our's control. But like the old adage goes, a picture can tell a thousand words. Sorry for my bad temper but how else do you expect me to respond repeatedly to people whom have seemingly put up a mental block to everything I say? I won't argue any further, just present the forum with 3 locations vying for a subway stop and see whether I am correct in my assertion that Sherway Gardens is the best location for an interregional transit hub instead of Kipling, Honeydale or East Mall.

SHERWAY GARDENS and ENVIRONS:

Potential location for interregional transit terminal right off the highway where special bus-only ramps would stream from the median of the 427 straight onto the bus platform platorm, one level above the subway.

EAST MALL/DUNDAS and ENVIRONS:

PAULART/DUNDAS and ENVIRONS:

 

[Dan416]

All this talk about Sherway should really be in the subway thread: http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?8962-Subway-To-Mississauga-Routing

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Fresh Start, if I didn't know the areas you have shown in your pics, I would think the subway is not the answer for that area. However, I'm not totally against a subway to Sherway. I think it could be a good location for an interregional transit hub, just not yet. But I only say that, because of it's close access to the QEW.

 

[W. K. Lis]

On the capital side.
46 bus x 10 years life cycle x $1m/bus x 3 cycle = $138m
29 LRV x 30 years life cycle x $4.5m/LRV x 1 = $140.5M plus $7m for midlife = $147.5
Total cost different $9.5m in favour of BRT Still leaving a $66.94m in saving.

For every $1 invested in transit, BRT will return $4 while LRT will return $10 in development.

What about inflation? Inflation will be add a higher cost to the price, each and every year (unless there's a depression).

 

[Dan416]

Fresh Start, if I didn't know the areas you have shown in your pics, I would think the subway is not the answer for that area. However, I'm not totally against a subway to Sherway. I think it could be a good location for an interregional transit hub, just not yet. But I only say that, because of it's close access to the QEW.

Exactly what regions do you expect to connect in a transit hub at Sherway exactly? If Mississauga Transit has no interest in using a Sherway hub, then who? GO Transit doesn't serve Sherway. I doubt more than a handful of TTC routes service Sherway. It's just not a major terminal for anyone. The interregional transit terminal at Kipling at least makes sense before and after a subway extension because even after an extension, at least TTC and GO would still serve Kipling with MT probably leaving for East Mall. Plus by the time the Bloor subway is extended, we'll likely already have the Dundas LRT serving Kipling. So MT will still serve Kipling in some capacity. We don't know yet if any MT routes will still serve Islington, although I find it difficult to imagine a day when MT no longer serves Islington.

In fact I find it likely that MT will serve all of the above (Sherway, East Mall, Kipling and Islington) depending on the route.

 

[doady]

The point of a regional terminal for MT is to connect to both GO and TTC. Sherway cannot have a GO station, or Dundas LRT/BRT connection, so there is no point in putting a regional terminal there, even if it did actually provide some advantage over East Mall, Kipling, or even Islington, in terms of travel times, which it doesn't. Let face it: Sherway, East Mall, and Kipling are all wastelands. The difference with Sherway is that is a more isolated locale, which is why it would take MT buses so long to get there.

20/26/76 should continue to serve Islington. 3 should continue to serve Kipling. All other MT routes should serve East Mall. The TTC should cancel the 49 and 50 and let MT take over.

 

[drum118]

What about inflation? Inflation will be add a higher cost to the price, each and every year (unless there's a depression).

I have used a straight line and plan on doing a 3% yearly increase like I did for the 403 BRT.

At the end of the day, LRT will beat BRT hands down on operation as you are using less labour.

Based on current performance of NFI Artic buses, 10 years vs 12 is all MT is going to get. Now if we get someone else bus, that may change.

When I did the 403 BRT labour cost, I used current cost then of about $55,000 and ended up with $85, 000 at the end.

We know LRT is the way to go, but since there is no money in the pot at this time, Metrolinx is going to push BRT.

The Board will have final say and it is those people you must educate and show why LRT should be the prefer choice over cost.

As for Sherway, the Cloverdale area is to get close to 15,000 residential unites when fully built out.

Sherway how Many??? Maybe 10%.

 

[Fresh Start]

Fresh Start, if I didn't know the areas you have shown in your pics, I would think the subway is not the answer for that area. However, I'm not totally against a subway to Sherway. I think it could be a good location for an interregional transit hub, just not yet. But I only say that, because of it's close access to the QEW.

That was precisely my point, it has long-term potential. The busway concept would not only help out the immediate areas of Mississauga, but also the far-flung nodal areas of Meadowvale, Erin Mills, UTM/South Commons, Clarkson, Port Credit, and Malton as well; even BRT from Bramalea City Ctr. Then Oakville transit can send over 2 BRT routes, one directly serving its Uptown Core (a la the 101) but also Trafalgar Campus and another following Lakeshore Rd that runs by the Oakville GO Stn and into their downotwn by the waterfront. Brampton Transit could funnel down some express routes. Seeing as Steeles will soon become a BRT ROW why necessarily should the service end at Humber College Blvd? Then Finch buses could have a branch that runs down. A Woodbridge route that'd connect the west end of Highway 7 VIVA to Albion, Humber, the airport and the Bloor Line. And rather than have everyone packed onto the subway like sardines we could even introduce BRT down the Gardiner whereby folk can get from the Mississauga border into the CBD in under 15 minutes. GO Transit buses of the Lakeshore West service could drop/pick-up passengers here, same as they would for Long Branch if there weren't so out of the way, giving people quicker access to/from the west end.

So it really is about regional cooperation with this location. Just because the rail corridor runs closerby Kipling doesn't mean that there is an idyllic spot for a interregional hub, if the regional buses are forced to travel so far inwards in order to make an adequate subway connection. Better to spread out where people are boarding the subway from than to have everyone scramble on in the one location. And how prey tell can a at-grade "Cloverdale" Stn be built anywhere near East Mall/Dundas, let alone one with limitless land area to house multiple bus bays on? I showed the forum the pics above and to me it looks like a tight, complicated (i.e. Expensive) squeeze to fit a hub there. This is why I think that if people had to choose between a longer bus ride to Kilping (between all those lights, congesion, and minor stops en route) and the faster and hence shorter bus ride to Sherway then travel back east on the subway, most would choose B since Kipling is not a destination anyway.

I think where my posts got lost in translation was that people were under the assumption that I want all the routes to be redirected to Sherway. That was never my intent. Dundas "LRT" could still commence from Kipling Stn but still be accessible for people at Sherway via the rerouting of the limited stop express routes 101 and 201 down to the Queensway. And I have stated many times that the #3 bus should remain heading east to Islington Stn. But low-demand express industrial area routes like 17, 27, 50, 70, 89 do not benefit from exiting the highway ROW at Dundas St, nor does it benefit the efficiency of other route's run time to be stuck sharing the limited land area around East Mall/Dundas with them. 11 Westwood also benefits from the reroute since the buses never have to decelerate until directly arriving at the subway station at North Queen/Queensway.

 

[Fresh Start]

Bus Rapid Transit and Light Rail Transit both have their rightful place in the system and do not have to be pitted as adversaries. None is any more inferior to the other and I could easily namedrop a tonne of Canadian, European, Chinese and US-based research studies on the forum that prove that in many circumstances BRT not only can obtain higher operational speeds but also lower operational costs, less energy consumption, greater ridership subsidy, greater vehcile life expectancy, greater passeneger capacity, and turn actual profit as opposed to rail transit; but I won't do that. People have to enlighten themselves the way that I have in order to get it.

Drum, you're exactly right, the Province doesn't have money for LRT right now and if Mississauga waits around for a windfall you might end up with a lot shorter line than you had hoped. Better to get a whole thing built in one shot than to suffer an embarassment like the Sheppard stubway. And don't put stock in all those 15,000 new residents forming your customer base for a new Cloverdale subway. The big difference between Sherway and Cloverdale is this: one is already equipped to accomodate a subway, the other has the potential for a site.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Exactly what regions do you expect to connect in a transit hub at Sherway exactly? If Mississauga Transit has no interest in using a Sherway hub, then who? GO Transit doesn't serve Sherway. I doubt more than a handful of TTC routes service Sherway. It's just not a major terminal for anyone. The interregional transit terminal at Kipling at least makes sense before and after a subway extension because even after an extension, at least TTC and GO would still serve Kipling with MT probably leaving for East Mall. Plus by the time the Bloor subway is extended, we'll likely already have the Dundas LRT serving Kipling. So MT will still serve Kipling in some capacity. We don't know yet if any MT routes will still serve Islington, although I find it difficult to imagine a day when MT no longer serves Islington.

In fact I find it likely that MT will serve all of the above (Sherway, East Mall, Kipling and Islington) depending on the route.

This isn't an argument about which Regions to serve. I'm sure MT, the TTC, and GO (if it was viable for them) would serve Sherway if a terminal was located there. I should have been more clear in my previous post, but the point I was trying to illustrate was that I think the area needs to mature a bit more. The density isn't there yet (at Sherway), but it will come if more mixed land uses are built. However, Sherway and the immediate surrounding area hasn't been designated as an Urban Growth centre by the province in "Places to Grow" and thus, I seriously can't see the subway being extended there anytime soon, and this is with "Places to Grow" being a policy with not a lot of bite, meaning, who knows what may or may not happen.

Let Kipling station and the surrounding area grow first, develop itself as a Hub and then if it outgrows itself, continue with a westerly expansion with the subway, but only if Sherway and the area surrounding it matures into a real community (granted that actually happens around a suburban mall). I'm a big believer of nodal development, and to me, Sherway just isn't that at this moment in time. As for Kipling, I never said to not used as an interregional hub, but let's see what happens with it's expansion and evaluate it from there.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Bus Rapid Transit and Light Rail Transit both have their rightful place in the system and do not have to be pitted as adversaries. None is any more inferior to the other and I could easily namedrop a tonne of Canadian, European, Chinese and US-based research studies on the forum that prove that in many circumstances BRT not only can obtain higher operational speeds but also lower operational costs, less energy consumption, greater ridership subsidy, greater vehcile life expectancy, greater passeneger capacity, and turn actual profit opposed rail transit; but I won't do that. People have to enlighten themselves the way that I have in order to get it.

Exactly. A little enlightenment and open mindedness goes a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way.

 

[doady]

So it really is about regional cooperation with this location. Just because the rail corridor runs closerby Kipling doesn't mean that there is an idyllic spot for a interregional hub, if the regional buses are forced to travel so far inwards in order to make an adequate subway connection. Better to spread out where people are boarding the subway from than to have everyone scramble on in the one location. And how prey tell can a at-grade "Cloverdale" Stn be built anywhere near East Mall/Dundas, let alone one with limitless land area to house multiple bus bays on? I showed the forum the pics above and to me it looks like a tight, complicated (i.e. Expensive) squeeze to fit a hub there. This is why I think that if people had to choose between a longer bus ride to Kilping (between all those lights, congesion, and minor stops en route) and the faster and hence shorter bus ride to Sherway then travel back east on the subway, most would choose B since Kipling is not a destination anyway.

I think where my posts got lost in translation was that people were under the assumption that I want all the routes to be redirected to Sherway. That was never my intent. Dundas "LRT" could still commence from Kipling Stn but still be accessible for people at Sherway via the rerouting of the limited stop express routes 101 and 201 down to the Queensway.

Sherway being served by VIVA, Brampton and Oakville Transit? 101/201 serving both Kipling and Sherway at the same time? East Mall surrounded by huge greyfields, yet no place for a bus terminal? What more needs to be said?

"Better to spread out where people are boarding the subway from than to have everyone scramble on in the one location. "

Then why this obsession with a huge regional terminal at Sherway of all places?

"Kipling is not a destination anyway."

Yes, it only happens to be located within an Urban Growth Centre proposed for over 400 jobs/people per hectare, served by the GO Train, and have a connection with the future Dundas BRT/LRT.

 

[drum118]

If I use $60,000 today for driver wages. At 3% yearly increase, it become $145,636 by 2040.

The cost saving between BRT and LRT drivers doing a one bus and one LRV moving the same load is $120, 006, 428 in favour of LRT. Have not added other staff to these numbers, but need 5 supervisors in total for Hurontario.

If I go to 2 LRT vs a bus, the cost saving jumps to $210, 012, 748.

Cost of vehicles is harder to determined due a whole range of issues, but at 1% increase/yr a $1m bus will cost $1,347,849 vs a $4m LRV costing $5,391,396.

If We buy 48 BRT now and every 10 years, total cost is $319, 901, 488.

If we buy 28 LRV now and in 30 years, total cost is $150, 959, 079. That a total of $168, 942, 410 less $35m to do mid life rebuilt leaving a saving of $168, 325, 410.

Between driver and vehicles, LRT just saved $240, 016, 855 to $378, 955, 158 and made up the cost difference in capital cost.

The big unknown and anyone want to take a stab at is the cost of fuel. Fuel is $.88/lr today, but well over $5 in 30 years. It cost $75,000 per bus to replace batteries every 3 years going hybrid. This will be the biggest cost saving area for LRT and over labour.

These 3 areas are the strongest selling point for LRT over BRT without looking at density or land value return.

We need to sell LRT to both Metrolinx and the Government now, otherwise the BRT folks at Metrolinx are going to be selling a lot of SRT lines.

There are and will be a need for BRT, but Hurontario St in Mississauga and Main/King in Hamilton need LRT today. Parts of VIVA and DRT BRT need to be BRT.

The section from Steeles to RHC needs to be LRT, not Subway for VIVA.

Once you drop your headway below 2 minutes for a bus, you need to move to LRT.

All future comments by me for Sherway will in that thread.

 

[Fresh Start]

...

Source?

Sherway being served by VIVA, Brampton and Oakville Transit? 101/201 serving both Kipling and Sherway at the same time? East Mall surrounded by huge greyfields, yet no place for a bus terminal? What more needs to be said?

I'm not saying that you couldn't put a terminal there, but it would be physically much smaller than what is capable at Sherway without mass expropriations. Why bother to go through all that trouble when you have a prepaved, desolote corner of the mall property that I'm certain Cadillac Fairview would not mind getting off their hands? Sherway is a destination, already, as in people actually want to go there. It is proximal to the Lakeshore so buses at Lakeshore can feed into it, saving their passengers time and money from not transferring. It is very proximal to downtown Toronto. If I can't afford the GO train but can't tolerate 40 minutes on the subway with transferring, there should be an express bus service for my kind of clientele. Queensway should be a BRT route and thereafter link to the Gardiner for a non-stop run to Union. Queensway West should also have bus lanes to Dixie Outlet and therefter continue northwards as Dixie BRT straight into Bramalea City Centre. My ideas are revolutionary, because I'm actually taking the time out to analyze where the bus passengers are going to and how best to accomodate their needs. The TTC are acting like a bunch of thugs running a drug cartel. They don't care about their customer base and yet feel justified in jacking up the fares every minute. They only care about their bottom line and sadly you've fallen for it. And no, I don't see any problem with Brampton Transit, Oakville Transit and York Region Transit operating a few AM/PM Rush Hour routes into Sherway to meet with the west end of the line. Keyword: Interregional.

If you're planning on transforming Etobicoke Centre-Six Points into the next vibrant, pedestrian friendly, landscaped downtown core as you profess; why on earth would you want a parade of smelly, smoggy, noisy buses clogging up your arteries and making them less safe and less appetizing to visitors and residents alike? Wouldn't you want the transit ROWs hidden away from view as much as possible? Don't you want a Dundas LRT line, isn't that more attractive? Wouldn't it generate more business and truly provide the LRT with a function through Etobicoke? If I'm heading to Dundas-Hurontario or to points west of there, neither the Dundas LRT nor Kipling Stn is of any use to me. What would be faster and more direct is to go to Sherway. If you hadn't noticed, the entire street grid of the City of Mississauga is at a diagonal to Toronto's; ergo if you pop up your rulers and measure the distances, you'll find that Sherway is geographically closer to Cooksville. If you're planning on running LRT from ECC to Cooksville (or MCC?) then it becomes highly redundant to have all services that cater to Dundas start from that point. If the 101 and 201 can get to the subway in less time using Dixie and Queensway, better to do that.

"Better to spread out where people are boarding the subway from than to have everyone scramble on in the one location. "

Then why this obsession with a huge regional terminal at Sherway of all places?

Isn't this one self-expalnatory? I just said and you quoted me that we are to spread out where the people go. We can have MT routes serve all four of Islington, Kipling, East Mall and Sherway Gdns. Heck, they do that today. But where there is time adavantages to using Sherway, we use it. For the Erin Mills, Meadowvale, ACC and Malton bound routes a stop location as close to the highway as possible is needed. Again East Mall's location should be nowhere near the East Mall. If it is not at Honeydale, it's not really serving the walk-in community. We're not building these lines for the sake of Mississauga Transit in isolation, the subway must be of local value as well. And Honeydale's even donating land in exchange for a stop there! It's creating out-of-the-way Kipling 2.0. to use the East Mall, except unlike Kipling or Sherway it'd truly be in the middle of nowhere. Your saying that it's not going to stay like that means nothing. I believe that Sheppard West won't always be parkland but still have the common sense to know that it'll have less daily usage than Chester for a long, long time to come.

"Kipling is not a destination anyway."

Yes, it only happens to be located within an Urban Growth Centre proposed for over 400 jobs/people per hectare, served by the GO Train, and have a connection with the future Dundas BRT/LRT.

Why are we so stuck on, and forgive me for using your post as a segue into philosophizing, planning ahead for things that could be and not taking care of the communities that we already have? If Sherway is cut-off and isolated, then your answer is to keep it that way perpetually? What of Alderwood or Applewood or Long Branch or Lakeshore Vlg? What of commuters from Brampton and Oakville who have to spend upto 2 hours a day commuting from those cities to the downtown? Yes, there's a GO Stn at Kipling and I even had a part-time job at a call centre nearby the subway there when I was a teenager. But that does not make it any more of a hospitable destination than Sherway. In truth, the GO Station should be relocated to Islington as there is the true epicentre of this UGC and the train-to-subway connection would be far more simplistic. Kipling's a wasteland and no amount of superfluous pork investment will transform it into anything other than a "just-passing-through" section of the city for the vast majority of transit users.