Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

The LRT would have to be underground in MCC to connect with the second terminal and the transitway station, and to bypass the Hurontario/403 interchange. The LRT would also have to be underground south of the QEW and in Downtown Brampton, unless you are willing to live with mixed traffic operation (which is why I don't get the rational for a Hurontario BRT). Between Downtown Brampton and Bristol, there is plenty of space for an alignment at the side of the road, below grade. So the only on-street sections would be between Bristol and Elia, and between Robert Speck and the QEW.

Second_in_pie said:
Though Zum is 90% marketing and 10% RT. Something like Ottawa is a good 10-20% branding and 80-90% RT.
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You're right. I didn't realize that the plan had been scaled back so much. It is almost exactly like VIVA now. Too bad. That's the typical story for transit expansion these days. I would hate to see the Hurontario LRT become a VIVA-style BRT.

York Region Transit - 19 million riders

OC Transpo - 88 million riders

Who's the better model for BRT? I'm going to have to go with Ottawa.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
If the LRT runs only in the middle of the road, it'll be ineffective and a serious waste of money...they might as well keep and improve the bus service. But if they actually build a real effective LRT line, that isn't at the mercy of complex left-turn signals and that runs under or over or beside the road where it can, and so on, it'll work. Mississauga and the province need to ignore how LRT is built in Toronto and copy what works in other cities...copy Calgary or Minneapolis, don't copy some heritage tram in a European city with very low car ownership rates and zero traffic on the roads and a long tradition of knowing how to properly operate the line.
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Exactly. It's gotta be done right. Fast, long trains, not short one car trains going slow in the middle of the road like Spadina. That's no improvement on what we already have on Hurontario.
 
Justin10000 said:
To be blunt Zum, and Viva are not even BRT. Just limited stop routes.
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Shhh!!!

Don't tell anyone!

.....

What concerns me about VIVAs and Zums are the time it takes to go from concept to operation. It will have been six years since the Zum concept was first (seriously) proposed, and four years since a funding commitment was made - and we'll only have 1/3rd of phase 1 this year.

If we simply used regular buses and ordinary stops/shelters for these express routes, we could cut the implementation time in half. I'm all for good branding (I love VIVA and I'm very excited about Zum) but I do suspect that the majority of users are responding to the service rather than the branding.
 
Justin10000 said:
Zum is nearly all branding. Just like Viva. A nicely branded bus route with fewer stops.

To be blunt Zum, and Viva are not even BRT. Just limited stop routes.
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I know, I acknowledged it in an earlier post. And the fact that VIVA is not BRT has been my point all along. How more plain could I be?

As I pointed out in another thread, VIVA has not increased the rate of ridership growth of YRT. In fact, ridership growth has slowed down substantially since VIVA. So it is sad that it held up as the model for BRT nowadays when it should be the Ottawa Transitway or the BRT in Curitiba that should be what new BRT system are modeled after. I would hate Mississauga to start building faux-BRT systems when they are already building a real BRT - the Mississauga Transitway.
 
Saying Viva isn't BRT is like saying streetcars aren't LRT...it's all about subjective definitions and connotations. What it does do, however, is imply that there's no room for improvement between regular bus service and whatever full-fledged BRT is. How well-used is the 202 express route? The 190 is a considerable improvement over the 85 even though it only overlaps for about 5km...is the 202 much better than the 19? It's not very frequent. I don't know where Hurontario gets clogged down with people, or slow due to traffic, or held up at certain intersections, so I don't know what kind of improvements that something like limited-stop service + queue jumps + whatever would do.

Nobody cares whether or not a bus route meets the criteria of technically may not be BRT, but they do care about how frequent the vehicles run and how long it takes to get around and so on. I agree that no one's really fooled by the branding and that they respond to the service. This isn't some segregated American city...people in Toronto ride the bus and if there's a faster bus to take, they'll do so.

As for Hurontario, it's too early to assume they're going to do this or that or run on the side of the road here or have that sort of left-turn arrangement there. Just look at Eglinton, where people initially thought "there's no way they wouldn't use the Richview corridor"...
 
doady said:
You're right. I didn't realize that the plan had been scaled back so much. It is almost exactly like VIVA now. Too bad. That's the typical story for transit expansion these days. I would hate to see the Hurontario LRT become a VIVA-style BRT.

York Region Transit - 19 million riders

OC Transpo - 88 million riders

Who's the better model for BRT? I'm going to have to go with Ottawa.
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well considering that York Region's whole population is fairly dispersed, Tornhill all the way to newmarket, onwards to Keswick...You cannot seriously be using those numbers as a basis for which system is better. Especially when Ottawa itself has a CBD, two universities...and a large amount of government buildings all in one place. York Region doesn't, most of its riders are from York Region proper going to Toronto and back, most of its ridership is from within.
 
Viva might not currently be any real form of BRT, but it soon will be. Viva BRTs will be higher quality RT than any of the TC LRTs, apart from a possible exception of Eglinton West. They'll be built big, for speed, limited stops, and will have real station complexes, as well as upgrades to higher forms of transportation when demand arises for it. In a mere 3 years, the first Viva ROWs will be finished, and combined with all day service on Barrie and Stouffville, that should see a huge increase in YRT ridership.

This part of Viva really is the preliminary phases; it was always known that it would evolve into a real RT system, and a phased implementation was started to get people good with the idea. Right now, Viva is quite a popular service and is continuing to gain ridership. Now that there's public interest and advocacy in it, once it actually becomes a BRT service then many, many more people should be using it. Brampton with Zum is trying to form their system without any actual rapid transit and just marketing. That's a big thing that separates the two, and could very well be a major defining feature between the two as the cities and their transit systems evolve urbanely.
 
doady said:
I know, I acknowledged it in an earlier post. And the fact that VIVA is not BRT has been my point all along. How more plain could I be?

As I pointed out in another thread, VIVA has not increased the rate of ridership growth of YRT. In fact, ridership growth has slowed down substantially since VIVA. So it is sad that it held up as the model for BRT nowadays when it should be the Ottawa Transitway or the BRT in Curitiba that should be what new BRT system are modeled after. I would hate Mississauga to start building faux-BRT systems when they are already building a real BRT - the Mississauga Transitway.
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Really? What is this based on, "VIVA has not increased the rate of ridership growth", I would think it has?
 
RedRocket191 said:
Shhh!!!

Don't tell anyone!

.....

What concerns me about VIVAs and Zums are the time it takes to go from concept to operation. It will have been six years since the Zum concept was first (seriously) proposed, and four years since a funding commitment was made - and we'll only have 1/3rd of phase 1 this year.

If we simply used regular buses and ordinary stops/shelters for these express routes, we could cut the implementation time in half. I'm all for good branding (I love VIVA and I'm very excited about Zum) but I do suspect that the majority of users are responding to the service rather than the branding.
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I agree. Zum is supposed to be completed by 2021? Why is it going to take 11 years to build an limited stop bus system? At the rate Brampton is growing, the system is going to be inadequate.
 
Please produce these stats. The burden of proof falls upon you.

And unless every other possible factor is eliminated, once cannot say that one "caused" the other.
 
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I am pretty sure I already posted them already in the YRT thread. Also pointed out that the actual ridership for 2006-2009 fell way short the projected ridership.

The fact that you guys automatically assume that I am lying and religiously defend York Region even after I already posted the stats just leaves me speechless. Makes me realize that there is no point arguing with you. You can't argue with religious fanaticism and so I'm not going to argue with you.

If you want to beleve that YRT ridership growth accelerated after VIVA and exceed expectations, then fine. More power to you.
 
You know, if you want people to believe them then just link to the stats. There's no need to flip out.
 
doady said:
I am pretty sure I already posted them already in the YRT thread. Also pointed out that the actual ridership for 2006-2009 fell way short the projected ridership.

The fact that you guys automatically assume that I am lying and religiously defend York Region even after I already posted the stats just leaves me speechless. Makes me realize that there is no point arguing with you. You can't argue with religious fanaticism and so I'm not going to argue with you.

If you want to beleve that YRT ridership growth accelerated after VIVA and exceed expectations, then fine. More power to you.
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Alright, but that projection was a pretty huge overestimate of how popular Viva's service would be. For god sake's, it only took out half of the bus stops and added pretty booths!
Again, the real Viva comes into effect in 2 or 3 years, once the first ROWs are done. And if I'm not mistaken, Zum has absolutely no accomodations for that, so it's totally fair to compare it to how Viva's doing right now. Just don't make comparisons to the two systems as a whole, because it's almost like me calling the Finch LRT useless cause Finch's ridership hasn't skyrocketed yet.
 
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