maestro
Senior Member
You can't honestly think the developer paid out $100 million in fees.
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
Yes, I do recall the total value of Tridel Hullmark Centre is pegged at about $500 million. And all the fees, levies and tranfers they pay amount to just under $100million. Some of them includes:
$3 million per subway entrance (there 2)
$3.3 million in education fee
"donating" the land for the Anndale Rd extension and building a road there for the city
"donating" some properties on Finch Avenue West to the city
etc,...
Most of the various fees, levies and transfers are listed in the 52 page final report and 33 page settlement offer,....
$3 million per subway entrance (there 2)
$3.3 million in education fee
"donating" the land for the Anndale Rd extension and building a road there for the city
"donating" some properties on Finch Avenue West to the city
etc,...
Most of the various fees, levies and transfers are listed in the 52 page final report and 33 page settlement offer,....
maestro
Senior Member
Permits and development fees maybe amount to 10 to 12 million dollars. Those fees cover the processing costs and what's left should be pooled to increase capacity of basic services like water, sanitation, etc. There certainly aren't billions available to spend on transportation infrastructure. The contributions you posted are also for community improvements like the one you suggest aren't happening.
Mike in TO
Senior Member
The largest portions of taxation revenue from new development go to senior levels of government, not the city of Toronto (GST to Feds, HST to prov, Land Transfer Tax to prov, income taxes from all labour, trades, consultants, planners etc go to Feds & province, corporate income taxes from the developer go to the province and Feds, WSIB charges to all the various rate group go to WSiB which is provincial, EI from all the labour to Feds)
There is a very significant amount of revenue from taxes, charges and fees - however the City of Toronto will see the smallest component from Development Charges, permit & planning fees and the municipal Land Transfer Tax, while the province and federal government will receive a much high component of revenue.
There is a very significant amount of revenue from taxes, charges and fees - however the City of Toronto will see the smallest component from Development Charges, permit & planning fees and the municipal Land Transfer Tax, while the province and federal government will receive a much high component of revenue.
caltrane74
Senior Member
Ramako
Moderator
The west side is okay, but the south side is almost 50/50 spandrel to vision glass. At least the glass is dark.
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
$10-12 million? You're thinking in terms of regular condo development. When its a big project like Hullmark Centre,... that goes over the former 100m height limit, excessive density that exceeds density zoning and requires density transfers, residential in commercially zoned land, two subway entrances, etc,... the settlement offers are much higher.
When a large development breaks the mold it pays huge fees, levies and transfers to compensate the city. Look at Menkes EmpressWalk. Because they were the first to build residential condo units on Yonge Street in North York,... where zoning was only allowed commercial offices,... in additions to their regular fees and leveies,... part of their settlement also included requirements that the developer:
- rebuild Earl Haig Secondary School
- rebuild McKee Public School
- rebuild Mitchell Field Community Centre
- re-align Doris Avenue to prevent thru-way traffic in a residential area connecting Bayview Avenue and Yonge Street.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Walk
You can not honestly think the above amounts to only 10-12 million dollars.
Yes, when there's a big project,... some of the fees, levies and transfers are in fact non-cash transfers,... where no cash actually exchange hands,... the city gets new parkland or rebuilt schools or rebuilt community centres or private properties become public roads, etc,.... and these transfers are generally not liquid and can't easily be converted to cash by the city,...
Of course there are NOT billions to spend on transportation infrastructures,... the city spent that money elsewhere,... the city is broke! The city of Toronto has always had terrible finances. Even before amalgamation, the city of North York had a surplus of cash sitting in the bank,... and those greedy downtowner where eyeing it. But the city of North York realize that money came from the tax payers of North York and spent that money on any infrastructure improvements it could in North York before amalgamation. So many North York neighbourhoods had sewer, water, road resurfacing, sidewalk work done just before amalgamation.
Now,... forget about the fees, levies and transfers that the city gets from developers,.... lets look at property tax that the city gets from residents.
Lets do some simple math,.... if you have a block of land with about 12 post war bungalows,.. each paying about 6K in property taxes per year that amounts to 72K in property tax to the city for that block of land.
Say a condo developer buys all that property and builds a condo there, your typical North York condo with 30 storeys and say 16 units per floor,... for a total of 480 units. Say the average property tax paid for by each unit is about 4K,... then the city would be collecting 1.92 million dollar in property tax for that same block of land,.... each and every year. That is 1.848 million dollars extra in property tax revenue.
Think of it this way,... each condo brings in almost $2 million in extra property tax revenue to the city,... there have been about 50 condos built in NYCC in the last 15 years since amalgamation,.... that amount to an extra $100 million in property tax revenue each year to the city,.... where does all this money go,... we certainly do NOT see $100 million of infrasturcture improvements to NYCC each and every year! So where is the city spending this money? Where???
I am not against the Robin Hood mentality,.... but right now the city is robbing NYCC blind! Sure Toronto has priority neighbourhoods and NYCC definitely is NOT a disadvantaged priority neighbourhood. But if the city is going to allow a new condo building with 1,000 residents to open up every 4 months (which is what has been happening in NYCC since amalgamation 15 years ago) then at least provide the infrastructures to accomodate all these extra residents,.... improve transit and road traffic congestion in NYCC, increase the elemenntary and high school capcity so kids are not bused out, widen pedestrian sidewalks, put in bike lane and trials, figure out the Sheppard Stubway, etc,.... real infrastructures,... not some extra parkland 3 kilometer away that the local community won't be using! 3km is NOT walking distance.
Part of the settlement for Tridel-Hullmark Centre is Tridel transfering properties at 115, 117 & 119 Finch Avenue West to the city to be used as parkland (next to Edithvale community centre). Hmmm,.... how does that parkland benefit the community at Yonge and Sheppard where Tridel is building Hullmark Centre? Surely a big company like Tridel must have other properties closer to Yonge and Sheppard that could have been converted to parkland that would have serviced the local community of Yonge and Sheppard much better,.... just look at all the development Tridel has built and continues to build in the Avondale condo community,... I'm sure those residents would have appreciated more parkland in the area
So far, the city has only paid to hire consultants to write reports and recommendations for this and that,.... but nothing ever gets done,... and when the condo developers are finished on Yonge Street in NYCC,... they will do the same on Sheppard East between Yonge and DVP,.... and if you think traffic and transit congestion is bad now,... just wait.
Condo developments are a gold mine for the city,... not just for the one time fees, levies and transfers,... but for the significant increase in property tax revenue per land space collected each and every year,..... and the much lower cost of servicing condo residents vs house residents,... its not just from simple economies of scale but also less services,... the city does NOT pick up garbage, recycling and organics from condos. Its no wonder why neighbouring municipalities are tripping over themselves trying to build their own condo filled city centres (ie Markham City Centre, RichmondHill City Centre, Vaughan City Centre, Mississauga City Centre, etc,....)
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
You would probably be correct in terms of the one time fees,... but when accounting for the increase in annual municipal property taxes revenue collected for all the units (ongoing recurring annual tax revenues),... each and every year over the life of the building,... surely the city will come out way ahead,... especially given that the city will not be responsible for cost such as garbage, recycling and organic waste collection,.... and also the demographic of condo dwellers having less school age children than house dwellers,....
Way back near the ground breaking,... in November 2010 (wow, has it been that long) Tridelwebmaster posted some interesting economic data on Hullmark Centre construction,.... in post #540,.... they seems to be data based on construction work,... and not inclusive of the economic multiplier effects,....
>>>
Hullmark Centre Economic Impact Report
Download the Hullmark Centre Economic Impact Report in PDF http://bit.ly/a3JHHI
• The total commercial value of Hullmark Centre is $493.7 million
• This development will create 2,400 person-years of employment in construction and
supporting industries with over $123 million in wages*
• It will generate over $74 million in revenues for the Federal and Provincial Governments
including, $23 million in personal income tax, $10 million in CPP contributions, $4 million in
EI premiums and at least $37 million in HST*
• Ongoing realty taxes are estimated at $8.2 million per year*
• A contribution of $3.3 million for education*
• These figures do not include municipal fees and levies, or corporate income tax revenues
generated by the tenants of the new retail and office components
* Source: Will Dunning Inc.
<<<
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showth...e-(NYCC-Tridel-Hullmark-44-35s-Kirkor)/page36
Anyways,.... regardless who the middleman tax collector is,... municipal, provincial or federal,.... we Canadians are generally the most taxed people in the developed world,.... and the Yonge-Sheppard-401 area has the worst traffic congestion in the GTA,... and Toronto has the worst traffic congestion in North America,..... Bottomline, we're taxed to death by all level of government,... and we're not getting enough infrastructures for our tax dollars!
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reaperexpress
Senior Member
You think NYCC shouldn't have been a high density mobility hub?! Think of the alternative, which is to house all those people and businesses in car-dependant subdivisions or office parks. North York Centre is known across the continent as one of the most successful suburban downtowns. The Hullmark Centre competes far more effectively against them than do condos and offices downtown.
There certainly should have built more infrastructure, namely the Downtown Relief Line to deal with Yonge line overcrowding. Wider roads would only have made traffic worse by hampering alternative modes. They make walking less attractive by separating buildings, being noisy and hard to cross. They also make transit and cycling less attractive by generally being unpleasant.
The new bike trails along the Finch hydro corridor are great as a recreational trail,.... but who use it to commute? In order for a bike trail to be effective it must be part of a network that go to the people,.... thus we need a bike lane/trail along the North York service ring roads (Beecroft & Doris). The city is already considering bike lanes on Beecroft.
Next, the bike lane/trail would have to navigate south to connect to the existing on street bike lanes in North Toronto near Lawrence/Eglinton Duplex,.... that goes downtown. The toughest part is navigating a bike lane though the Yonge-401 interchange,.... and then there's the challenge of that huge crater,... err, valley,...basically it's easy to ride down to Yonge and YorkMills/Wilson,... but once you're down there, its a real b*tch to ride back up in any direction. I do have a proposal to solve that problem,....
As someone who has used that trail numerous times to get from my house in Vaughan to NYCC, I can say it is fairly reasonable as a transport corridor. As you say, it would really benefit from better link into the Centre of NYCC, and that is exactly what I said we should build. Doris and Beecroft would be great as paired one-ways, with Beecroft being southbound and Doris being northbound. That way there would be space freed up for bike paths along either Yonge or both Beecroft and Doris.
It's true that the 401 poses a huge barrier for walking and cycling, but a huge portion of travel is in directions not affected by it.
I don't see why they would need to widen that bridge. Avenue Road pretty much ends there, so there is no need for the big structure they have now. And bike lanes there would do nothing for NYCC since there's a huge valley separating the two.
Sure, it's true that we're the most taxed people in the developed world ... if the "developed world" means just us and the United States. Seriously, have you even heard of Europe?
Yes, traffic can be bad around North York Centre, but it doesn't seem to be any worse than the rest of the GTA. From my experience, Highway 7 and Weston is far worse. If you were right about density and lack of infrastructure being the cause of congestion, you would expect the traffic there to flow quite nicely. Just look at the level of infrastructure compared to the density!
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taal
Senior Member
Seriously ? Many cities have similar "northern" downtown's, sure most are smaller, but what I really question is the successful part ...
A lack of interesting street level retail has always plauged parts of NYCC ... though its getting better now as more of the empty plots of land get filled and more retail comes to play (though the interesting part is still debatable).
Now in terms of office space ... if anything, its a complete failure, at least compared to the original goals set forth ... there was too be much more office space,but they never panned out, there was never a marker, maybe do Toronto's high commercial tax rate.
Anyway, I honestly wouldn't call NYCC a success, it has many good elements, and has been slowly coming together. I'll admit its appealing to live in the area, there are many amenties most would look for one would image ... a great civic space (including a pool / library / ...), convenient access to the core (but other transportation options aren't great due to congestion) ...
But again, its not a success by any measure ... rather a work in progress ... where the original goal failed to pan out ... and now, knowing that isn't achievable, an alterted goal set in place.
What would make it better is if most of the retail from Sheppard up to say Church (from Church to Finch, there is actually quite a bit of Korean / Persian retail), would be demolished so that more interesting shops could take their place. Of course more offices as well ... but ideally we should focus on competing with the 905 rather then cannibalizing the inner 416 ..
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reaperexpress
Senior Member
In my first year urban planning class, NYCC was used as a good example of a suburban node. Maybe that was just due to proximity/relevance then.
Although it hasn't met its goals, especially regarding office space, I think it works pretty well as the downtown for North York.
Thanos
Active Member
Well what other suburban downtown in Canada has been more successful or as successful as NYCC? Looking at Montreal, Ottawa & Quebec City, there isn't one that even comes close. Maybe in Vancouver?
Conrad Black
Senior Member
I love seeing Yonge and Sheppard finally urbanizing in a major way.
jivey80
Active Member
Sep 30th, 2012 Pano taken with iPhone 5
Can't seem to get the image to load. Here's the direct link.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ruBiaPiakJYxUhHTxonp49MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
Can't seem to get the image to load. Here's the direct link.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ruBiaPiakJYxUhHTxonp49MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
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sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
Attached,... Sept 28th, 2012 Regular non-pano picture NOT taken with iPhone5
NOTE: They're currently working on adding the 18th floor of the south tower,.... they're basically at halfway point in terms of height,... since south tower will have 35 floors when done. South tower started raising from ground level in mid-Feb,... 7.5 months ago. It'll probably take them another 7.5 months to be done with south tower (height/cement only - still need cladding and internals),... factor in the winter, maybe another 9 months,.... but then again, now they seem to be completing a floor a week,.... with 17 more floors to go,.... maybe another 5 months.
NOTE: They're currently working on adding the 18th floor of the south tower,.... they're basically at halfway point in terms of height,... since south tower will have 35 floors when done. South tower started raising from ground level in mid-Feb,... 7.5 months ago. It'll probably take them another 7.5 months to be done with south tower (height/cement only - still need cladding and internals),... factor in the winter, maybe another 9 months,.... but then again, now they seem to be completing a floor a week,.... with 17 more floors to go,.... maybe another 5 months.
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