Markham GTA Centre | ?m | ?s | GTA S. and E. | BBB

[TOareaFan]

Nice that there are examples of special service in other cities but here we have no history Adjusting schedules. Blue Jays, TFC, Argos, Leafs all have been around a while and (except for a brief period when the Dome first opened) normal regular service is all we get.

 

[Jonny5]

I am pretty sure the TTC makes adjustments for TFC game nights. I have only been to a TFC game once, but when I left there were 4 empty 510 ALRVs sitting in the Exhibition loop plus some cars for the 509 waiting for people to come out.

I don't think subway service is adjusted, but they definitely ramp up the staffing level at Union post-Leaf games. All the rush-hour only entrances are suddenly manned and there are supervisors all over to handle the crowds. But they can be handled with out extra subway service. I think that's why an adjustment is not needed. There is no transit line that can whisk away 2000 people every 5 minutes on a Sunday at 10pm in Markham.

 

[canarob]

Arenas don't rely on "frequent" service. They rely on, and need, the ability to get large amounts of people to and from at one point in time. If I am going to a game and considering public transit I don't really care if there is a bus every 10 minutes all day....what I want is to be sure there is a seat on bus when I leave and a seat on a bus that gets me there on time for the event I want to go to.

So, which transit agency are we going to expect/demand to have many buses parked outside the arena waiting to whisk people away after the games in multiple directions?

Well, you could make it "frequent" an hour and half before an event and an hour and a half after, etc. As mentioned above, the fact that the TTC doesn't really do this has no bearing on what GO and YRT might do.

Also, there has also been significant ridership growth along the 407 routes, so increased service wouldn't only be to serve events.

The traffic projections -- which may be dead wrong, who knows -- are predicting 23% from within York, so many of those could use VIVA; 39% from Toronto -- many could use the Stouffville line to Union or Kennedy; and 15% from the east and 21% from the west could take a 407 GO bus. I'll admit that this will probably be very auto-centric in the first few years, but there are certainly opportunities to improve transit headed in all directions.

 

[TOareaFan]

I am pretty sure the TTC makes adjustments for TFC game nights. I have only been to a TFC game once, but when I left there were 4 empty 510 ALRVs sitting in the Exhibition loop plus some cars for the 509 waiting for people to come out.

I don't think subway service is adjusted, but they definitely ramp up the staffing level at Union post-Leaf games. All the rush-hour only entrances are suddenly manned and there are supervisors all over to handle the crowds. But they can be handled with out extra subway service. I think that's why an adjustment is not needed. There is no transit line that can whisk away 2000 people every 5 minutes on a Sunday at 10pm in Markham.

I think if you went to that TTC loop at the Ex there are often streetcars sitting there waiting for there next departure. There is no adjusted transit service for TFC. That extra staffing at Union may or may not exist but it certainly doesn't change the system's capacity to move people.

In the early days of the Dome GO used to have trains that waited at Union and would depart 15 minutes after the last pitch (don't quote me on the 15 part but it was "x" minutes after the end of the game). That service lasted a few years but disappeared.

Toronto handles sports crowd traffic much differently than most cities I have been to (I am a bit of a "sports tourist"). Most major cities/venues lay on extra transit and also, often, put cops on point duty around the stadiums to override traffic signals and move people away from the venue (sometimes in a direction they were not intending to go) quickly. We have made the decision to simply allow our current transport infrastructure (roads, traffic lights and transit) to operate "normally" and hope that is sufficient.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Nice that there are examples of special service in other cities but here we have no history Adjusting schedules. Blue Jays, TFC, Argos, Leafs all have been around a while and (except for a brief period when the Dome first opened) normal regular service is all we get.

Pardon my curt tone but qwaahh??? If adding special routes near the end of an event at the arena is not best practices than please explain why other than to say "that's not how we do it here". If it is an option than we should be evaluating it no? Just seems odd to wave it off as it's fine there but not here, imagine someone saying "It's fine that Portland built an LRT, but we don't do that here in Toronto". Sounds just as absurd no?

In fact it wouldn't need that much of an improvement in service anyway. VIVA (purple) already operates at 20 min frequencies at worst, meaning that they would only need to to add 3 more buses per hour during the post game time period.

Also I don't think you can look at the ACC/Rogers Centre as, unlike stadiums in the US, these are located in central areas of the city with lots of public transit. Not many stadiums have the 6 or so regional rail lines, multiple regional bus lines, and a subway line all within walking distance of the building. The ACC/Rogers Centre do and so have the capacity to move spectators out of the area quickly without the need for added special service. This doesn't mean that it won't be needed in Markham

 

[canarob]

Also I don't think you can look at the ACC/Rogers Centre as, unlike stadiums in the US, these are located in central areas of the city with lots of public transit. Not many stadiums have the 6 or so regional rail lines, multiple regional bus lines, and a subway line all within walking distance of the building. The ACC/Rogers Centre do and so have the capacity to move spectators out of the area quickly without the need for added special service. This doesn't mean that it won't be needed in Markham

That's a good point. There are so many games, concerts, and other events in Toronto, that you'd almost need special service every night anyway.

Many times I've been on standing-room-only GO buses heading home because I was leaving when an event got out. Better overall service really is the answer for Downtown Toronto. GO has been gradually increasing the number of bus runs in the evening, so this helps a bit.

 

[TOareaFan]

Well, you could make it "frequent" an hour and half before an event and an hour and a half after, etc. As mentioned above, the fact that the TTC doesn't really do this has no bearing on what GO and YRT might do.

Well I think we can get a hint as to what GO will do because, well, they currently have train stations near few major sporting venues now (ACC, Rogers Centre, Ricoh, BMO) and they rely on regular service to service those stations. As a season ticket holder at BMO I can always tell when the GO trains arrive (or are schedlued to leave) because it impacts how many people are in their seats.....people arrive late because that is when the train is scheduled and they leave early because they would rather miss the last 10 minutes of the match than have to wait 50 minutes after the match ends 'til the next scheduled train is there.

Also, there has also been significant ridership growth along the 407 routes, so increased service wouldn't only be to serve events.

The traffic projections -- which may be dead wrong, who knows -- are predicting 23% from within York, so many of those could use VIVA; 39% from Toronto -- many could use the Stouffville line to Union or Kennedy; and 15% from the east and 21% from the west could take a 407 GO bus. I'll admit that this will probably be very auto-centric in the first few years, but there are certainly opportunities to improve transit headed in all directions.

The spread out nature of the likely audiences probably makes it even more difficult to "lay on" addditional transit in amounts sufficient enough to convince the public to leave their cars behind.

 

[TOareaFan]

Pardon my curt tone but qwaahh??? If adding special routes near the end of an event at the arena is not best practices than please explain why other than to say "that's not how we do it here". If it is an option than we should be evaluating it no? Just seems odd to wave it off as it's fine there but not here, imagine someone saying "It's fine that Portland built an LRT, but we don't do that here in Toronto". Sounds just as absurd no?

In fact it wouldn't need that much of an improvement in service anyway. VIVA (purple) already operates at 20 min frequencies at worst, meaning that they would only need to to add 3 more buses per hour during the post game time period.

Also I don't think you can look at the ACC/Rogers Centre as, unlike stadiums in the US, these are located in central areas of the city with lots of public transit. Not many stadiums have the 6 or so regional rail lines, multiple regional bus lines, and a subway line all within walking distance of the building. The ACC/Rogers Centre do and so have the capacity to move spectators out of the area quickly without the need for added special service. This doesn't mean that it won't be needed in Markham

I never said it was not best practice....I said there is no evidence that we would do it. There are, actually, not 6 regional rail lines near ACC/Rogers.....there are 2 at the times events run.....and those 2 are the same 2 that are at BMO and they "stick to schedule" for events at those stadiums/arena.

 

[gweed123]

I never said it was not best practice....I said there is no evidence that we would do it. There are, actually, not 6 regional rail lines near ACC/Rogers.....there are 2 at the times events run.....and those 2 are the same 2 that are at BMO and they "stick to schedule" for events at those stadiums/arena.

I agree with the sentiment that just because the TTC and GO don't do it doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. There are a multitude of TTC options serving the ACC and Rogers Centre (a bit less for BMO Field).

But a suburban arena will need to have transit service beefed up for events, because the usual amount of service won't be enough to handle the surge in ridership that they will cause.

Having designated transit routes for event nights will be very important, and may actually even generate a profit for VIVA and GO, as the buses will probably be quite full.

 

[TOareaFan]

So.....I was thinking of this thread last night. I had forgotten that I was going to a show at the ACC and had left my car at home. So, quite by accident, I was reliant on GO getting me home after the show.

Got from the ACC to the bus terminal in nifty time and was right on time for a bus that would be leaving in 3 minutes time. Got on board, tapped my Presto and sat down (not sure why there was still a seat so near the front but I took it). 3 minutes later I got to hear these words from the driver to a lady at the door "we're full but don't worry but I think there will be another bus in half an hour".

That is how we handle moving crowds now......no one on that bus can rely on TTC and I suspect a lot of people don't rely on transit to get them away from the events because no one wants to be that person that, either, just misses a bus and has to wait 30 minutes for the next one or, in the case of that lady last night, is on time for a bus but it is full.

Would GO/Viva do things differently for a rink in Markham....perhaps, but there is no indication that they either have the resources or the inclination to do so.

All I am saying (and have been saying) is that the GTA centre will be very car centric and, perhaps, those 4k parking spots will not be enough on some nights.

 

[canarob]

Although it's not great, having to wait half an hour for the next bus when you've arrived a minute before it leaves isn't the worst thing ever. When leaving events you should expect to have some wait for a bus home. It would often take you just as long to get your car out of a giant parking garage.

On our GO buses, they let you on unless the aisle is already completely full of standers (which is sort of dodgy since it goes up the DVP and across the 407).

If the Stouffville line can do three runs back to the city after events, that would be about 6,000 people that could be accommodated right there within an hour or an hour and a half-ish. As someone mentioned above, if there are bars and restaurants nearby, people can just grab a beer and take a later train. The option would also be there to take VIVA to Finch or Don Mills. Special runs to Kennedy station might be another option. I think anyone heading to the 416 would just have to be a bit strategic about it.

The bigger problem will be getting people from the 416 to the arena during the evening rush hour. The northbound Stouffville trains are already bursting at the seams and even with the eventual addition of an extra evening train or two and 12-car trains, there will be crush loads. Same with VIVA from Finch, which is already very full during rush hour (this is another instance where VIVA Green from Don Mills might be useful).

Given it's surrounded by an empty field, if parking did become a problem, extra surface parking could be added very quickly (which would eventually be replaced by underground parking in new phases of Downtown Markham). Also, the 4k figure doesn't include the 1,500 (and always expanding) spaces at the GO station, which would have spots emptying up as commuters return home (I realize the combination of people rushing in and out of this parking lot at once would be problematic though!).

 

[TOareaFan]

Although it's not great, having to wait half an hour for the next bus when you've arrived a minute before it leaves isn't the worst thing ever. When leaving events you should expect to have some wait for a bus home. It would often take you just as long to get your car out of a giant parking garage.

It is, however, a perception thing and how people behave is not necessarily predictable based on the "logic" of people on these boards. After all, participation in discussion about things like transit and urbanism on a board like UT already, I would suggest, makes the people on here far more likely to accept those situations.

The reality though, when you mix in those "regular folks" who are not on UT is far from that. As people have pointed out, the ACC might well be one of the most transit accessible arenas in North America. Yet the road congestion before and after a game/event is markedly different than on non-event nights. The conclusion is obvious, even with an arena attached to a subway and regional train station and right across the street from a regional bus network a significant majority of people still choose to drive.

The follow on conclusion, then, has to be (in my mind) that an arena in Markham with far less transit accesiblity will be even more car centric. That is not, in and of itself, a "bad" thing as long as it is recognized and plans are made for that. What scares me is when, for whatever reason, the plans are made assuming there will be a higher than likely transit usage. I think this will be very car centric and I would rather that was recognized and planned for (in terms of road access and parking) than not.

If the Stouffville line can do three runs back to the city after events, that would be about 6,000 people that could be accommodated right there within an hour or an hour and a half-ish. As someone mentioned above, if there are bars and restaurants nearby, people can just grab a beer and take a later train.

Four pretty major assumptions there:

1. Off peak, southbound service is available with 12 car trains.
2. 6,000 people (30% of arena capacity) will be heading in that one direction
3. 100% of the 30% will be interested in transit
4. 67% of the 30% (4,000 people) will be willing to wait around for between 60 - 90 minutes.


I love that this arena is going up....I love that I don't pay taxes to the municpality borrowing the money to build it....I accept that if I attend events there, I will be driving.

 

[Markham VIP]

The VIVA rapidway along Hwy 7 from Yonge to Downtown Markham will be completed by the time this arena opens up. Rapid transit services will be available from Finch Station to Downtown Markham. In addition, the GO Train will take people from Union Station to Downtown Markham in no time, and there are several other VIVA bus routes that will get you there as well.There are more than enough options for those not looking to drive.
For those who do want to drive...4400 parking spots will be sufficent. People who want to drive will always find a way. Some may choose to park at Finch Station and take VIVA from there. As mentioned by someone else, the 4400 spots does not include all the GO Parking that may potentially be available during evenings and weekends. And if worse comes to worse....there is an incredible amount of office parking space in the area around Downtown Markham. Many many many parking spots that would be vacant during the evenings and weekends. I doubt it will get to that point though...If nothing works and they are desperate for parking spots, then within days they could create more temporary spots anywhere on all that flat land in Downtown Markham.

 

[gweed123]

The VIVA rapidway along Hwy 7 from Yonge to Downtown Markham will be completed by the time this arena opens up. Rapid transit services will be available from Finch Station to Downtown Markham. In addition, the GO Train will take people from Union Station to Downtown Markham in no time, and there are several other VIVA bus routes that will get you there as well.There are more than enough options for those not looking to drive.
For those who do want to drive...4400 parking spots will be sufficent. People who want to drive will always find a way. Some may choose to park at Finch Station and take VIVA from there. As mentioned by someone else, the 4400 spots does not include all the GO Parking that may potentially be available during evenings and weekends. And if worse comes to worse....there is an incredible amount of office parking space in the area around Downtown Markham. Many many many parking spots that would be vacant during the evenings and weekends. I doubt it will get to that point though...If nothing works and they are desperate for parking spots, then within days they could create more temporary spots anywhere on all that flat land in Downtown Markham.

Well let's just do that math here:

-20,000 seat arena
-Assume 30% of people will take transit
-Assume an average of 2 people per car (some will be 3 or 4, but some will only be 1)

That means 7,000 cars will be going for the game. The choke point is going to be the capacity of Warden. The vast majority of people are going to be heading west, and Warden is the main route to get to both Highway 7 and the 407 (albeit in different directions). Assume half going north (Highway 7 and north on Warden), and half going south (407 and Warden south). 1,000 cars may go east, so that leaves 6,000 cars going out westbound. That means 3,000 cars going north on Warden and 3,000 cars going south.

The biggest problem is going to be the left turns from the downtown to southbound Warden, and from northbound Warden to westbound Highway 7. That's going to severely limit the ability to push people through the area. I've seen what it's like exiting SBP after a game, and the left turn lane from Palladium Dr onto Terry Fox Dr, it takes forever to turn left there.

In order to not have it be a complete traffic nightmare after the game, there's going to need at least a 40% transit modal split.

 

[canarob]

Well let's just do that math here:

-20,000 seat arena
-Assume 30% of people will take transit
-Assume an average of 2 people per car (some will be 3 or 4, but some will only be 1)

That means 7,000 cars will be going for the game. The choke point is going to be the capacity of Warden. The vast majority of people are going to be heading west, and Warden is the main route to get to both Highway 7 and the 407 (albeit in different directions). Assume half going north (Highway 7 and north on Warden), and half going south (407 and Warden south). 1,000 cars may go east, so that leaves 6,000 cars going out westbound. That means 3,000 cars going north on Warden and 3,000 cars going south.

The biggest problem is going to be the left turns from the downtown to southbound Warden, and from northbound Warden to westbound Highway 7. That's going to severely limit the ability to push people through the area. I've seen what it's like exiting SBP after a game, and the left turn lane from Palladium Dr onto Terry Fox Dr, it takes forever to turn left there.

In order to not have it be a complete traffic nightmare after the game, there's going to need at least a 40% transit modal split.

Traffic will be split between Warden and Kennedy pretty evenly, I think. Even for those going west, if it's easier to make a series of right-hand turns and get off at Kennedy to the 407, people will adapt. For those heading south or north, Birchmount will also be there.

To add to Markham VIP's point about other parking lots, you could also park at Markville Mall and take VIVA for the extra 5-10 minutes.