Toronto Forma | 308m | 84s | Great Gulf | Gehry Partners

Agreed. It was most definitely built specifically to handle Miss Saigon: no theatre in the city had a fly tower large enough to accommodate the helicopter used in that production. Needless to say it has handled quite a number of shows since then, but I believe that all of the shows which were expected to run for years and years, only achieved years. Besides Miss Saigon, all of these had healthy, but shorter runs than what was hoped for: Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, Sound of Music. There was also, most infamously, Lord of the Rings, which was never healthy in any respect. There have been lots of other shorter run shows through of course, like Les Miz, Chicago, Hairspray, Oliver!, a Phantom remount, Cabaret, and currently they've got a healthy run of War Horse in there.

So, the place is big, and hard to fill. There are also a number of other large live theatre venues in Toronto, and most are under-used. Whether you can blame Dancap's demise on Mirvish or not, we have the Elgin and Winter Garden and the Toronto Centre for the Performing Arts all dark most of the time. A closure of the PoW would mean better use of those venues of course.

I have quite a fondness for the PoW and her fittings, so if she's got to go (and I believe that since it would be the same company tearing it down that built it, they have every right), then I am glad to read that Frank Stella's work is either reproducible or salvageable. I'll look forward to a few more productions there before it closes, but once it's gone I will be very happy to welcome what looks to be the most important new complex in the city in decades. The Mirvish Collection gallery has me the most excited, well that and the promise of three wonderfully idiosyncratic Frank Gehry towers.

How lucky are we? Those who can't see it have a lack of imagination and no respect for precedent. Gehry has done wonderful things around the world, and there are hints here that this could be amongst his very greatest.
 
Traynor said:
I realize Mirvish doesn't own the next block above Pearl Street but he should have gathered those parcels of land before announcing this project.
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But wasn't he forced to formally announce this project before he had intended to, when that video was leaked right here at UT?
 
Tewder you add so much of value to these discussions, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
In part my view reflects the sense that this whole development cycle could end at any time (or not) and we have precious few memorable projects to point to. If had greater faith that our current trajectory would continue, with new 70+ proposals emerging every month, then I'd have a cautious view as well. I guess I just want to get this safely through the door before it slams shut.
 
Massive, Gaudy proposals like this are confirmation that the boom is reaching its end. Hopefully they aren't in a rush to tear down the existing buildings, because if this project goes under it will most certainly be the city's next generation of parking lots for a long time. I've seen this happen countless times in NYC and it's such a waste.
 
WiddleBittyKitty said:
Agreed. It was most definitely built specifically to handle Miss Saigon: no theatre in the city had a fly tower large enough to accommodate the helicopter used in that production. Needless to say it has handled quite a number of shows since then, but I believe that all of the shows which were expected to run for years and years, only achieved years. Besides Miss Saigon, all of these had healthy, but shorter runs than what was hoped for: Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, Sound of Music. There was also, most infamously, Lord of the Rings, which was never healthy in any respect. There have been lots of other shorter run shows through of course, like Les Miz, Chicago, Hairspray, Oliver!, a Phantom remount, Cabaret, and currently they've got a healthy run of War Horse in there.

So, the place is big, and hard to fill. There are also a number of other large live theatre venues in Toronto, and most are under-used. Whether you can blame Dancap's demise on Mirvish or not, we have the Elgin and Winter Garden and the Toronto Centre for the Performing Arts all dark most of the time. A closure of the PoW would mean better use of those venues of course.

I have quite a fondness for the PoW and her fittings, so if she's got to go (and I believe that since it would be the same company tearing it down that built it, they have every right), then I am glad to read that Frank Stella's work is either reproducible or salvageable. I'll look forward to a few more productions there before it closes, but once it's gone I will be very happy to welcome what looks to be the most important new complex in the city in decades. The Mirvish Collection gallery has me the most excited, well that and the promise of three wonderfully idiosyncratic Frank Gehry towers.

How lucky are we? Those who can't see it have a lack of imagination and no respect for precedent. Gehry has done wonderful things around the world, and there are hints here that this could be amongst his very greatest.
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Can miss saigon come back for one last run. I've never scene it and the helicopter sounds kinda cool
 
alblant said:
Massive, Gaudy proposals like this are confirmation that the boom is reaching its end. Hopefully they aren't in a rush to tear down the existing buildings, because if this project goes under it will most certainly be the city's next generation of parking lots for a long time. I've seen this happen countless times in NYC and it's such a waste.
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I'm pretty skeptical the market will support three 80+ storey towers.

Three 60+ storey towers, however, sounds doable.
 
alblant said:
Massive, Gaudy proposals like this are confirmation that the boom is reaching its end. Hopefully they aren't in a rush to tear down the existing buildings, because if this project goes under it will most certainly be the city's next generation of parking lots for a long time. I've seen this happen countless times in NYC and it's such a waste.
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I hate to say it but I think you've nailed it.
 
I wanted to see what this stretch of brick buildings would look like without the grey paint on 5/6 of them, and figured the only way would be to make a crude image on Sketchup. The heights are a bit off, but I believe the lengths are fairly accurate. So this is the entire site, minus the PoW and Royal Alex (the latter because I didn't want to put in the effort). I like the exposed brick structures in Toronto, and think they should be preserved - even if it's just a facade. IMO the integration of old and new is one of the main reasons King has been so successful.
8055800067_8c4db0a280_b.jpg
[/url] kimg_gehry-mirvish_2 by 44 North, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
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I like the exposed brick structures in Toronto, and think they should be preserved - even if it's just a facade. IMO the integration of old and new is one of the main reasons King has been so successful.
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When it comes to the old brick warehouse buildings involved, I really can't agree. None of them meet the street very well at all, nor are they of any historical or architectural significance. I don't think being 100 years old and made of bricks automatically guarantees you protection from demolition. The proposed project represents a vast improvement.

Gehry has already had to work in existing structures and pesky budgets in his last Toronto project...let's give him the blank slate/cheque scenario and see what he can pull off.
 
I like this strip as is, but it's hard to ignore the possibilities of this project.

One reason I'm willing to give Mirvish a wide berth is the fact that his family is responsible for revitalizing the area in the first place. It's not as though he's a rich new developer trying to destroy the area purely for profit.

Part of me trusts that they'll be able to deliver something that's of generational significance.
 
nopacnone said:
NYC=forest of skyscrapers=standard traffic
LA=mostly 1 & 2 story buildings=insane traffic
People who spend their day in the downtown core are less likely to drive if they live in a nearby condo tower.
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NYC does NOT = standard traffic , you obviously haven't been there - traffic is horrendous.
 
alblant said:
Massive, Gaudy proposals like this are confirmation that the boom is reaching its end. Hopefully they aren't in a rush to tear down the existing buildings, because if this project goes under it will most certainly be the city's next generation of parking lots for a long time. I've seen this happen countless times in NYC and it's such a waste.
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This is formally known as the Skyscraper Index:

From the Wikipedia article:

The Skyscraper Index is a concept put forward in January 1999 by Andrew Lawrence, research director at Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein, which showed that the world's tallest buildings have risen on the eve of economic downturns...
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It's a fascinating article.
 
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alblant said:
Massive, Gaudy proposals like this are confirmation that the boom is reaching its end. Hopefully they aren't in a rush to tear down the existing buildings, because if this project goes under it will most certainly be the city's next generation of parking lots for a long time.I've seen this happen countless times in NYC and it's such a waste.
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This is a Tautology. If the boom ended 5 years ago, you'd be saying massive proposals like 4S, Trump, Shangra-Li were obvious signs of the end. Proposals always get bigger until the cycles ends. If these Gehrys get completed and then a supertall gets announced I am sure we'll hear your familiar refrain. Eventually you will be correct, we all know that, but people having been saying this since 2006. Whether its 3 X 80 stories that marks the end, or 100 floors, or 2 X 100 floors - no-one knows.

BTW - which NYC parking lots are you referring to?
 
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