Toronto Five St Joseph | 160.93m | 48s | Five St. Joseph | Hariri Pontarini

[ADRM]

Easy for you to say (or, talk is cheap). Retail isn't exactly thriving right now, anywhere, especially on Yonge Street. And it will be a while before all internet cafes, knock-off luggage, bubble-tea, and tattoo shops dwindle. But please proceed to describe the specifics of your suggestion?

1. Retail quite precisely is doing quite well at the moment, both Canada- and Toronto-wide (Canada = +4.6% YoY; Toronto = +6.8% YoY).
2. I don't know how you came to the theme of Internet cafes, knock-off luggage stores, tattoo shops, or bubble tea establishments, but the Now article mentions exactly zero of those.

 

[buildup]

Residents will but that's not the point here. A bank will not generate the same traffic as three separate retailers. Start with the bank hours which are shorter than other retail.

The writer stated clearly that because the condo entrance wasn't on Yonge, it wouldn't generate foot traffic. That is simply wrong. A 50 story building 20 yards from Yonge will generate foot traffic. Anyway, people use banks (I do) and since they will be on Yonge one way or another, perhaps it's good they can help pay for these projects?

 

[smably]

I'm surprised you'd double down on this article. Unless we are asking developer to subsidize retailer's lease, they will have to pay market rates. In exchange for tiny strips of lovingly restored Victorians I can live with a bank and a coffee shop. If this writer is so insightful how do you explain his claim that 5 will not create foot traffic on Yonge? It's so blatantly false, it's hard to take the article seriously. And the "Corporate double doors" etc. I'm referring to the points cited in the excerpt.

Did you even read the article?

 

[buildup]

1. Retail quite precisely is doing quite well at the moment, both Canada- and Toronto-wide (Canada = +4.6% YoY; Toronto = +6.8% YoY).
2. I don't know how you came to the theme of Internet cafes, knock-off luggage stores, tattoo shops, or bubble tea establishments, but the Now article mentions exactly zero of those.

Oh for heaven's sake. Really? Then where are all these fascinating, inviting, exotic retailers and why aren't they snapping up any of the other locations on Yonge?

 

[ADRM]

The writer stated clearly that because the condo entrance wasn't on Yonge, it wouldn't generate foot traffic. That is simply wrong. A 50 story building 20 yards from Yonge will generate foot traffic. Anyway, people use banks (I do) and since they will be on Yonge one way or another, perhaps its good they can help pay for these projects?

You're either oversimplifying what's meant by foot traffic or misunderstanding it. Yes, obviously, people walk (with their feet) into and out of banks. But the majority of those customers will walk up, make a 30-second ATM transaction, and leave. That's not the type of foot traffic that contributes to vibrant neighbourhoods, but there are many other retail typologies that do foster the more desirable type of foot traffic (people lingering, interacting with others and with their environment, spending money on local businesses, etc.).

The author very specifically cites a variety of shops, a range of sensory experiences, and a high number of people creating a more palpable sense of energy at-grade as a few goals to shoot for. Objectively, a bank branch occupying a set of combined units that could have, individually, been occupied by businesses that would have a better shot at satisfying those goals is a less desirable outcome if you agree with those stated urbanistic goals.

 

[ADRM]

Oh for heaven's sake. Really? Then where are all these fascinating, inviting, exotic retailers and why aren't they snapping up any of the other locations on Yonge?

Yes, really. That data is from StatsCan.

Might you have a more reliable source underpinning your assertions?

 

[buildup]

Yes, really. That data is from StatsCan.

Might you have a more reliable source underpinning your assertions?

Sure, Common Sense. I wont trouble to look into what StatsCan considers to be retail sales (Wendy burgers?), Costco, Walmart; or other things like start/end period bias. Everyone knows street-level retail for most things aside from food is down because of internet shopping.

 

[ADRM]

Sure, Common Sense. I wont trouble to look into what StatsCan considers to be retail sales (Wendy burgers?), Costco, Walmart; or other things like start/end period bias. Everyone knows street-level retail for most things aside from food is down because of internet shopping.

Okay, off-topic discussion officially ends when you aver that your "common sense" is a more reliable source than Statistics Canada.

 

[Skeezix]

NOW's concerns about a lively and interesting streetscape are valid. The specific point NOW made about foot traffic not being generated by the second floor apartments and/or condo (because the entrance is not on Yonge) is profoundly dumb, but foot traffic is a valid concern.

I think we have had this discussion in this thread before, but I am not keen on the City regulating retail tenants (e.g. bank bad, independent coffee shop good, and so on). Banks do contribute to a complete neighbourhood. But I don't think there is anything wrong with the City regulating the amount of ground level frontage that any one tenant occupies.

 

[Orson]

I vaguely recall an (unscientific) survey of grade-level independent retailers in new(ish) development properties done recently finding that, on the whole they aren't being replaced by larger corporate stores. Layer that on the renewal of Yonge, and principles of older/rougher retail spaces being used as incubators for independent small business, and you'll see that this is cyclical (if it's indeed happening). Personally I'd have more issue with an over-idealization of grimy small shops and rougher neighborhoods. It reeks of the gentrifier mentality.

 

[buildup]

Okay, off-topic discussion officially ends when you aver that your "common sense" is a more reliable source than Statistics Canada.

Fair enough, I'll continue to argue the obvious. I hold to the Common Sense view that street level retail is under siege from online retailers. Can certainly end official discussion and let readers decide who is correct.

 

[Benito]

Apparently it was temporary @adHominem .

 

[adHominem]

Phew!

 

[French Nomad]

The 5th floor (Five on Five) amenities are slowly beginning to shape up. Let's begin with the male toilet/change rooms, next to the gym space.

Here's the promotional material, to give you a sense of what you're looking at:

Men's toilet vanity and toilets stales behind, as you enter the room.

Opposite side of the vanity

Thermal pool (interesting name for a jacuzzi!)

Wet steam sauna

Dry steam sauna

The "Experience Shower"....which looks like an oversized communal shower like those found in gyms. Haven't seen it work though.

 

[TheKingEast]

"Experience Shower" Lulz.