JasonParis
Moderator
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Toronto Entertainment District
- Thread starter JasonParis
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jaborandi
Active Member
You provide da throbbing beats and we can dis and cuss wid all dem cheats
... I know, I know, that was real lame and I take the blame, take the blame, take the blame
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
To continue our discussion from the 60 John thread, about Councillor Adam Vaughan, the various local ratepayers' groups such as the King Spadina Residents Association (KSRA) and the precise nature of Councillor Vaughan's push to "reduce the number of clubs in" (my description) or "shut down" (per unimaginative2) the Entertainment District:
You appear to have a more complete picture than I do of Councillor Vaughan's record of public pronouncements on the "Club Problem". The statements I have heard (or choose to recall hearing, at any rate) are not coded messages to the racist/reactionary members of the KSRA (or if they are, he's paying lip service while engaging in a re-educationary exercise with them...but that might be giving him too much credit).
In any event, I agree that if he does say the things you have cited, that he is behaving badly and displaying tendencies that I, too, would oppose. To be sure, it's not that I can't see Vaughan pandering to these people, but I would not expect him to do so publicly. Maybe it is a function of my perception of Vaughan as something of a "maverick politician" (if such a thing exists) that I believe he has an agenda that is more noble than increasing his future ability to pander to more people. If that sounds hopelessly naive (which I know it does) then so be it. History will prove me wrong, no doubt, but without that misplaced optimism I wouldn't have a reason to go to work, pay my taxes, vote or write on the UT message board.
I must admit that I haven't witnessed any random acts of violence in the Club District (although I would continue to forcefully argue that every alleyway/laneway is used as a makeshift urinal -- not that it's a huge deal). However, the gang violence and drunken violence inside some clubs (i.e. non-random violence) is pretty bad. I'm really not a law-and-order type, but I am alarmed when 65 shots are fired in a gun battle at Adelaide & Widmer. If I lived anywhere within bullet-range, I would personally be absolutely livid and willing to go to unreasonable, illogical and illiberal lengths to prevent it from occurring in the future. But I definitely take your point that the "safety" issue in the Club District for non-club patrons is a red herring (aside from the gun battle).
You appear to have a more complete picture than I do of Councillor Vaughan's record of public pronouncements on the "Club Problem". The statements I have heard (or choose to recall hearing, at any rate) are not coded messages to the racist/reactionary members of the KSRA (or if they are, he's paying lip service while engaging in a re-educationary exercise with them...but that might be giving him too much credit).
In any event, I agree that if he does say the things you have cited, that he is behaving badly and displaying tendencies that I, too, would oppose. To be sure, it's not that I can't see Vaughan pandering to these people, but I would not expect him to do so publicly. Maybe it is a function of my perception of Vaughan as something of a "maverick politician" (if such a thing exists) that I believe he has an agenda that is more noble than increasing his future ability to pander to more people. If that sounds hopelessly naive (which I know it does) then so be it. History will prove me wrong, no doubt, but without that misplaced optimism I wouldn't have a reason to go to work, pay my taxes, vote or write on the UT message board.
I must admit that I haven't witnessed any random acts of violence in the Club District (although I would continue to forcefully argue that every alleyway/laneway is used as a makeshift urinal -- not that it's a huge deal). However, the gang violence and drunken violence inside some clubs (i.e. non-random violence) is pretty bad. I'm really not a law-and-order type, but I am alarmed when 65 shots are fired in a gun battle at Adelaide & Widmer. If I lived anywhere within bullet-range, I would personally be absolutely livid and willing to go to unreasonable, illogical and illiberal lengths to prevent it from occurring in the future. But I definitely take your point that the "safety" issue in the Club District for non-club patrons is a red herring (aside from the gun battle).
unimaginative2
Senior Member
You make very good points, and your idealism certainly is admirable. There are lots of great maverick politicians out there who latch on to an issue and really push for it regardless of the consequences. Unfortunately, I don't really think Adam Vaughan is one of them. I'd like to get into this a bit more, but time is short right now.
One of my big issues with Vaughan is his compulsive publicity-seeking, and this is one more manifestation of it. He always has to be the guy providing the big quote, whether he's making totally unparliamentary attacks on his fellow councillors or denouncing swaths of his ward. During the land transfer tax fiasco, he (a rookie councillor not even on the executive committee) had a quote in every single substantial news article I read. He must just chase the reporters down. Obviously he still has connections from his previous career.
The gun battle (unquestionably very bad) was associated with one club that has a long history of problems. Instead of a blanket campaign against "clubs" and everybody in them, the city should be looking at which places cause the most problems and go after them and their owners.
If public urination's that big a deal, I see a lot more of it on Queen West or Spadina than I do in the Club District.
One of my big issues with Vaughan is his compulsive publicity-seeking, and this is one more manifestation of it. He always has to be the guy providing the big quote, whether he's making totally unparliamentary attacks on his fellow councillors or denouncing swaths of his ward. During the land transfer tax fiasco, he (a rookie councillor not even on the executive committee) had a quote in every single substantial news article I read. He must just chase the reporters down. Obviously he still has connections from his previous career.
The gun battle (unquestionably very bad) was associated with one club that has a long history of problems. Instead of a blanket campaign against "clubs" and everybody in them, the city should be looking at which places cause the most problems and go after them and their owners.
If public urination's that big a deal, I see a lot more of it on Queen West or Spadina than I do in the Club District.
B
Bumbarass
Guest
I have lived at the corner of Richmond and Simcoe for years now and have never been disturbed by anything more than the occasional non-sensical drunken shout from Richmond Street. Yes, there is pee in the alleyway behind my building. Yes, there is sometimes fighting in the clubs or on the streets. Yes, a gun may be pulled every now and then (although I have never actually heard a gunshot here). But I KNEW THIS WAS THE CLUB DISTRICT WHEN I BOUGHT HERE. It's something I am willing to accept. If people don't like it - don't live in this part of town. No matter what you do - as long as there is going to be a bunch of drunken youth out and about there is going to be some trouble. You can spread it all over the city or try to contain it as much as possible in one district. Besides, there are so many police here Thurs-Sat night that you would be a really dumb criminal to try anything stupid. Not to mention all the cameras everywhere.
digitalcabana
Active Member
The last days of clubland?
The last days of clubland?
January 25, 2008
Barry Hertz
National Posted
Friday night in Toronto’s Entertainment District: Under the floodlights and closed-circuit cameras that now watch over the troubled neighbourhood, a mounted police officer gallops down an alley, dispatched to yet another brawl.
The Post's Zosia Bielski reports:
Officers cluster at nearly every corner, patiently enduring the blustering machismo and insults of boozed-up young men. “F--- the popo,†one yells.
Along Pearl Street, three teens bellow “We’re VIP,†as one grabs at his crotch. On Peter Street, a driver with Goodfellas limo service politely asks a group of girls
staggering into his car if they need vomit bags. He grimaces when they decline the bags.
Such is the controlled chaos of clubland circa January, 2008. At its peak, 67,000 revellers choke its streets and narrow laneways, with just 60 officers deployed to manage them. With 87 nightclubs jammed between Queen, Wellington, Spadina and Simcoe streets, it is the most densely saturated club district in North America.
But by many accounts, these are the final days of clubland — at least as many thousands of drunk kids have known it.
Condominiums are sprouting up across the neighbourhood, including Ivan Reitman’s Festival Tower at the corner of King and John streets, and another residence being built on the lot where the Joker nightclub once stood.
Residents are increasingly fed up — and vocal — as powerful stereo systems, brawls and gunshots routinely shake them from sleep. Police overtime is reportedly set to balloon to close to $2-million in the district this year, and local councillor Adam Vaughan has made it his mission to make club owners pay a portion.
Mr. Vaughan has declared war on club owners, and last month successfully prodded the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario into joining a working group that will try to increase safety in the area.
‘‘We’re about to turn a corner, but it hasn’t turned that corner yet,’’ Mr. Vaughan says. ‘‘It’s been a crescendo of problems. The hope is it’s peaked and we’re about to get a handle on the situation. New development is taking care of some of the clubs — new condos, property owners, residents, other businesses in the area, all these groups pushing for us to get a handle on the situation, and not wipe out the club industry but just make it safe for everybody, including the people going to the clubs.’’
On the other hand, many revellers have grown tired of being corralled by police horses and told to shove off, especially after dropping thousands of dollars on VIP booths and bottle service.
“People don’t like the hassle of police walking around telling you to get off the road,†says Jeko Riapov, 23, a Scarborough construction business owner who says many local twentysomethings have abandoned the area in favour of a new district growing on King Street west of Spadina Avenue.
By all appearances, the original Entertainment District is a still a much sought-after weekend destination.
Last Sunday at 2:30 a.m., Richmond Street West was lit up like rush hour, lined with cabs, chartered buses and limos; the latter mostly ferrying kids in from the surrounding Greater Toronto Area, proving cheaper than cabs.
Police patrolling the neighbourhood say limos are creating two new problems: Fights are now erupting between groups of teens who line the sidewalks waiting for their limos at the end of the night. Police are also investigating limo drivers who are letting liquor flow in their cars, the result being teens who descend on the bars already drunk.
It is just one of a myriad challenges facing officers in the area. Last year, police tallied at least 171 assaults and robberies, as well as two fatal shootings and one fatal stabbing.
This month, two Brampton men were charged with sexual assault causing bodily harm after a woman was violently attacked in the elevator of a Simcoe Street condo tower. Last April, a man was stabbed five times outside the DNA Lounge on Adelaide Street West. Two months later, three people and a police officer were stabbed after a fight broke out in a nearby parking lot.
Every weekend, 52 Division fills its 20 cells, sometimes overflowing to 55 Division. The men will remain locked up for at least four hours, or until they sober up.
“They’ll go non-stop like they’re out of their minds for two or three hours. We get teenagers to young adults to professionals,†says Staff Sergeant Shaun Narine of 52 Division.
By many police accounts, the revellers are getting nastier. The bullpen, a bleak concrete room in the bowels of 52 Division, now routinely fills up with women: “cat fights†are a growing problem, says Sergeant Ed Lamch of the division’s primary response unit.
He also says some party-goers have taken to attacking police horses, which now wear face shields.
Knives are an increasing concern, although only a handful of clubs have installed metal detectors, despite a recent bylaw amendment requiring all clubs install detectors or equip staff with security wands.
On this Saturday night, Staff Sgt. Narine helps co-ordinate approximately 60 officers, including a bicycle crew and a nine-horse mounted unit. The first trouble spot is in the Duncan and Pearl streets area, where pubgoers start fanning out on to the streets earlier than clubbers just before last call.
Five men holler and lurch in the middle of the road. Nearby, a girl slides limply to the ground outside Grace O’Malley’s.
“There’s a few drunks wobbling around,†radios Staff Sgt. Narine, requesting officers to the corner. Within minutes, six officers and two horses appear on the scene, quickly outnumbering the teens, who disperse.
Twenty-five minutes later, down a narrow laneway between industrial Victorian buildings, the mood tenses up. Outside This is London, Charles Khabouth’s plush nightclub, a well-dressed man has been ejected for rowdiness: “I work hard! I have a $1,000 tab in there!†the man yells at a bouncer. His friend spits profanity at the same employee, who eventually responds by clocking him in the side of the head.
Feet away, four teens abandon a car they have parked haphazardly outside the club: Staff Sgt. Narine suspects the driver was drunk and surprised by the four officers who appeared on horseback in the laneway. But his concern mounts as he recalls Jan. 9, when a similar scene ended with the driver fetching a handgun from his car, then threatening a bouncer. He later finds one of the teens trying to jump into a teenage girl’s limo as she screams for police.
“On some nights, it’s relatively quiet and the number of police can do the job with no problem. On other nights it is crazy and the police struggle to keep up,†says Wayne Scott, chairman of the King-Spadina Residents Association. The group wants club owners to help pay for enforcement and clean up through a business licence fee.
“Our neighbourhood is trashed by people who have no vested interest in the community,†says Mr. Scott, who is unsettled about the prospect of anther club district taking hold west of Spadina. “We are trying to make sure that doesn’t develop the same kind of character that the Entertainment District did.â€
The last days of clubland?
January 25, 2008
Barry Hertz
National Posted
Friday night in Toronto’s Entertainment District: Under the floodlights and closed-circuit cameras that now watch over the troubled neighbourhood, a mounted police officer gallops down an alley, dispatched to yet another brawl.
The Post's Zosia Bielski reports:
Officers cluster at nearly every corner, patiently enduring the blustering machismo and insults of boozed-up young men. “F--- the popo,†one yells.
Along Pearl Street, three teens bellow “We’re VIP,†as one grabs at his crotch. On Peter Street, a driver with Goodfellas limo service politely asks a group of girls
staggering into his car if they need vomit bags. He grimaces when they decline the bags.
Such is the controlled chaos of clubland circa January, 2008. At its peak, 67,000 revellers choke its streets and narrow laneways, with just 60 officers deployed to manage them. With 87 nightclubs jammed between Queen, Wellington, Spadina and Simcoe streets, it is the most densely saturated club district in North America.
But by many accounts, these are the final days of clubland — at least as many thousands of drunk kids have known it.
Condominiums are sprouting up across the neighbourhood, including Ivan Reitman’s Festival Tower at the corner of King and John streets, and another residence being built on the lot where the Joker nightclub once stood.
Residents are increasingly fed up — and vocal — as powerful stereo systems, brawls and gunshots routinely shake them from sleep. Police overtime is reportedly set to balloon to close to $2-million in the district this year, and local councillor Adam Vaughan has made it his mission to make club owners pay a portion.
Mr. Vaughan has declared war on club owners, and last month successfully prodded the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario into joining a working group that will try to increase safety in the area.
‘‘We’re about to turn a corner, but it hasn’t turned that corner yet,’’ Mr. Vaughan says. ‘‘It’s been a crescendo of problems. The hope is it’s peaked and we’re about to get a handle on the situation. New development is taking care of some of the clubs — new condos, property owners, residents, other businesses in the area, all these groups pushing for us to get a handle on the situation, and not wipe out the club industry but just make it safe for everybody, including the people going to the clubs.’’
On the other hand, many revellers have grown tired of being corralled by police horses and told to shove off, especially after dropping thousands of dollars on VIP booths and bottle service.
“People don’t like the hassle of police walking around telling you to get off the road,†says Jeko Riapov, 23, a Scarborough construction business owner who says many local twentysomethings have abandoned the area in favour of a new district growing on King Street west of Spadina Avenue.
By all appearances, the original Entertainment District is a still a much sought-after weekend destination.
Last Sunday at 2:30 a.m., Richmond Street West was lit up like rush hour, lined with cabs, chartered buses and limos; the latter mostly ferrying kids in from the surrounding Greater Toronto Area, proving cheaper than cabs.
Police patrolling the neighbourhood say limos are creating two new problems: Fights are now erupting between groups of teens who line the sidewalks waiting for their limos at the end of the night. Police are also investigating limo drivers who are letting liquor flow in their cars, the result being teens who descend on the bars already drunk.
It is just one of a myriad challenges facing officers in the area. Last year, police tallied at least 171 assaults and robberies, as well as two fatal shootings and one fatal stabbing.
This month, two Brampton men were charged with sexual assault causing bodily harm after a woman was violently attacked in the elevator of a Simcoe Street condo tower. Last April, a man was stabbed five times outside the DNA Lounge on Adelaide Street West. Two months later, three people and a police officer were stabbed after a fight broke out in a nearby parking lot.
Every weekend, 52 Division fills its 20 cells, sometimes overflowing to 55 Division. The men will remain locked up for at least four hours, or until they sober up.
“They’ll go non-stop like they’re out of their minds for two or three hours. We get teenagers to young adults to professionals,†says Staff Sergeant Shaun Narine of 52 Division.
By many police accounts, the revellers are getting nastier. The bullpen, a bleak concrete room in the bowels of 52 Division, now routinely fills up with women: “cat fights†are a growing problem, says Sergeant Ed Lamch of the division’s primary response unit.
He also says some party-goers have taken to attacking police horses, which now wear face shields.
Knives are an increasing concern, although only a handful of clubs have installed metal detectors, despite a recent bylaw amendment requiring all clubs install detectors or equip staff with security wands.
On this Saturday night, Staff Sgt. Narine helps co-ordinate approximately 60 officers, including a bicycle crew and a nine-horse mounted unit. The first trouble spot is in the Duncan and Pearl streets area, where pubgoers start fanning out on to the streets earlier than clubbers just before last call.
Five men holler and lurch in the middle of the road. Nearby, a girl slides limply to the ground outside Grace O’Malley’s.
“There’s a few drunks wobbling around,†radios Staff Sgt. Narine, requesting officers to the corner. Within minutes, six officers and two horses appear on the scene, quickly outnumbering the teens, who disperse.
Twenty-five minutes later, down a narrow laneway between industrial Victorian buildings, the mood tenses up. Outside This is London, Charles Khabouth’s plush nightclub, a well-dressed man has been ejected for rowdiness: “I work hard! I have a $1,000 tab in there!†the man yells at a bouncer. His friend spits profanity at the same employee, who eventually responds by clocking him in the side of the head.
Feet away, four teens abandon a car they have parked haphazardly outside the club: Staff Sgt. Narine suspects the driver was drunk and surprised by the four officers who appeared on horseback in the laneway. But his concern mounts as he recalls Jan. 9, when a similar scene ended with the driver fetching a handgun from his car, then threatening a bouncer. He later finds one of the teens trying to jump into a teenage girl’s limo as she screams for police.
“On some nights, it’s relatively quiet and the number of police can do the job with no problem. On other nights it is crazy and the police struggle to keep up,†says Wayne Scott, chairman of the King-Spadina Residents Association. The group wants club owners to help pay for enforcement and clean up through a business licence fee.
“Our neighbourhood is trashed by people who have no vested interest in the community,†says Mr. Scott, who is unsettled about the prospect of anther club district taking hold west of Spadina. “We are trying to make sure that doesn’t develop the same kind of character that the Entertainment District did.â€
smuncky
Senior Member
a big 
to that article
to that article
JasonParis
Moderator
From Adam Vaughan's e-mail list...
marcus_a_j
Senior Member
From NRU, July 25, 2008
TIMES ARE A CHANGIN’
Entertainment district
An influx of development applications and a city review of the built form in the entertainment district have prompted the newly-established Toronto entertainment District Business Improvement Area board to create a plan for the future of the area.
The BIA has retained The Planning Partnership in association with branding and marketing firm Scott Thornley + Company to conduct a survey, gather information about people’s perceptions of the district and eventually create a master plan that provides a long-term vision for the future look and feel of the area.
“This master plan happens to be occurring at a very timely period in this area’s history,†project lead and firm partner Harold Madi told NRU.
“There is an extraordinary number of development applications coming forward that are fundamentally going to change the character of this area…this exercise is about filling in the gaps and providing a coherent vision.â€
In addition to reviewing studies that have been conducted in the area such as the Union Station precinct plan, the King-Spadina secondary plan and the built form review that is underway, the consultants have set up a website and recently sent out a slew of email surveys to gather ideas about what people want to see occur in the district.
“There are some changes going on but there are some things that are treasured, which we’re learning as a result of the survey,†Madi said, adding that they have received about 500 responses so far and the deadline is July 31.
The survey asks about the activities associated with the area; the unique aspects of the district; whether it has a positive or negative reputation and if it feels safe. It also attempts to gauge the respondent’s opinion on changes and challenges facing the area and if its label as “the entertainment district†is appropriate.
Once all of the results are compiled, a positioning report will be presented to the BIA board of directors in August. Visioning events will take place in September and Madi said the goal is to have a draft of the master plan by the end of the year.
The plan will provide guidelines covering themes like built form, design and public realm and will help the BIA set priorities, he added.
The entertainment district BIA is bound by Lakeshore Boulevard, Spadina Avenue, Queen Street west and University Avenue, though it also encompasses Union Station and the Air Canada Centre.
Within the boundary, there are theatres, major league sports venues, several new condominiums, eight hotels—soon to be 14—a variety of shops, restaurants, nightclubs and there are also a number of historic manufacturing warehouses that have been preserved and adapted for reuse by offices and studios.
TIMES ARE A CHANGIN’
Entertainment district
An influx of development applications and a city review of the built form in the entertainment district have prompted the newly-established Toronto entertainment District Business Improvement Area board to create a plan for the future of the area.
The BIA has retained The Planning Partnership in association with branding and marketing firm Scott Thornley + Company to conduct a survey, gather information about people’s perceptions of the district and eventually create a master plan that provides a long-term vision for the future look and feel of the area.
“This master plan happens to be occurring at a very timely period in this area’s history,†project lead and firm partner Harold Madi told NRU.
“There is an extraordinary number of development applications coming forward that are fundamentally going to change the character of this area…this exercise is about filling in the gaps and providing a coherent vision.â€
In addition to reviewing studies that have been conducted in the area such as the Union Station precinct plan, the King-Spadina secondary plan and the built form review that is underway, the consultants have set up a website and recently sent out a slew of email surveys to gather ideas about what people want to see occur in the district.
“There are some changes going on but there are some things that are treasured, which we’re learning as a result of the survey,†Madi said, adding that they have received about 500 responses so far and the deadline is July 31.
The survey asks about the activities associated with the area; the unique aspects of the district; whether it has a positive or negative reputation and if it feels safe. It also attempts to gauge the respondent’s opinion on changes and challenges facing the area and if its label as “the entertainment district†is appropriate.
Once all of the results are compiled, a positioning report will be presented to the BIA board of directors in August. Visioning events will take place in September and Madi said the goal is to have a draft of the master plan by the end of the year.
The plan will provide guidelines covering themes like built form, design and public realm and will help the BIA set priorities, he added.
The entertainment district BIA is bound by Lakeshore Boulevard, Spadina Avenue, Queen Street west and University Avenue, though it also encompasses Union Station and the Air Canada Centre.
Within the boundary, there are theatres, major league sports venues, several new condominiums, eight hotels—soon to be 14—a variety of shops, restaurants, nightclubs and there are also a number of historic manufacturing warehouses that have been preserved and adapted for reuse by offices and studios.
Dichotomy
Banned
This entire area is in transition. It has gone from seedy (but fun) in the '80s when there were truly great clubs down there (like Twilight Zone), to a cheap Canadian version of Las Vegas (yeah, right.) Perhaps in another 20 years a better mix will be established.
Still, I can't help but wonder why people would move into that area and then complain about the noise/peeing/raucous behavior. Sort of like buying a house in Malton and then bitching about the planes!
Clubland has certainly changed since the '70s when I started partying. We were never 'patted down' in those days, but then the wannabees from Woodbridge never bothered coming downtown. Sigh. I guess it is like the schools today: guns and knives. We never heard about those 35 years ago.
Yep, the city is changing. Some of it is good. Some of it is bad. I rarely go down to the 'entertainment' district. It's too cheesy and tacky. Too many posers: all dressed up and nowhere to go.
Besides, alcohol and hopped up rice-mobiles don't mix!
Still, I can't help but wonder why people would move into that area and then complain about the noise/peeing/raucous behavior. Sort of like buying a house in Malton and then bitching about the planes!
Clubland has certainly changed since the '70s when I started partying. We were never 'patted down' in those days, but then the wannabees from Woodbridge never bothered coming downtown. Sigh. I guess it is like the schools today: guns and knives. We never heard about those 35 years ago.
Yep, the city is changing. Some of it is good. Some of it is bad. I rarely go down to the 'entertainment' district. It's too cheesy and tacky. Too many posers: all dressed up and nowhere to go.
Besides, alcohol and hopped up rice-mobiles don't mix!
BobBob
Senior Member
One thing never changes, though: guys getting older and going on about how things just aren't the same anymore...
Dichotomy
Banned
Redroom Studios
Senior Member
well Dichotomy... I dont know why so many people seem to be giving you a hard time. Perhaps because you arent afraid to speak up and voice your opinion. While I may not agree with every one of your points of view, I think they are well thought out and expressed, and its clear that you have a wealth of personal experiences to draw from. Certainly you are getting an unreasonable number of personal attecks in response...
smuncky
Senior Member
if you're hinting at what i think you're hinting, then what you said gave me a chuckle.
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
Last night after meeting up and seeing The Leopard at Cinematheque, followed by a late supper at Ho Su on Queen, our gang of five wandered around clubland. It was more crowded than I've ever seen it before, tons of people here for Caribana, long queues to get into some places. Most of the young guys looked like, well, typical young guys ... but many the women were quite something, spilling out of their bright and sparkly clothes, almost drag-queenish in their exaggerated femininity. What a game.
Afterwards - quite the contrast - we drove back to the lifeless lower east end, past the big box site on Eastern Avenue - the scale of this proposal has to be seen to be believed - and thence on the various little houses we each call home.
Afterwards - quite the contrast - we drove back to the lifeless lower east end, past the big box site on Eastern Avenue - the scale of this proposal has to be seen to be believed - and thence on the various little houses we each call home.