Toronto Emerald Park Condos | 128.92m | 40s | Bazis | Rosario Varacalli

[AlvinofDiaspar]

sunnyray:

I know the history of planning behind the NYCC. The question I have for you is - are you having an issue with this project because of the change in land use, or is it about using the change in land use as an excuse to oppose this project, with the real reasons behind the opposition based on other factors such as built form?

AoD

 

[Solaris]

personally, I think the design/built form of both Emerald Park and Hullmark Center are great, the proposed height although in excess of 100m would be of no issue here considering its location, plus the City has 'tall building guidelines' and plenty of experience dealing with this type of proposal.

I think in its current form, Tridel's development will likely be approved and Bazis' will likely be refused for the following reasons:

1. Hullmark Centre has significant office component, where as Emerald Park does not; to get approval, Bazis will probably need to change plans to include more substantial office space
2. Hullmark Centre is right at the intersection of Yonge+Sheppard, which warrants higher density/height than Bazis located 1 block away from Yonge+Sheppard intersection ... I think Bazis deserves height in excess of 100m, but their tower (given location) should be shorter than Hullmark Centre to signify the hierarchy of the towers with importance placed at the intersection
3. existing approved high-density residential developments are located in the southeast quadrant of Yonge+Sheppard, while residential towers do not exist in the southwest quadrant of Yonge+Sheppard (there's only the Nestle office bldg)

 

[interchange42]

3.existing approved high-density residential developments are located in the southeast quadrant of Yonge+Sheppard, while residential towers exist in the southwest quadrant of Yonge+Sheppard (there's only the Nestle office bldg)
[/LIST]

Solaris - are you missing a word in this line?

42

 

[Solaris]

I believe Tridel has their approvals from the City for Hullmark. Tridel usually waits for their buildings to be approved before selling units, which they are doing now. Before approval they accept pre-registrations.

for the record ... I don't think Hullmark Centre has approvals yet either, but Tridel's convention is to start marketing campaigns only when they have achieve certain milestones in the development approval process such that they have a comfort level that their proposal would likely get approved ... they certainly do not start sales before even submitting a required rezoning or Official Plan Amendment application to the City ! ... (bad boy Bazis) ... in reference to a post from TWM in the Hullmark Centre thread

When Tridel puts up a registration page it is only after planning, financing and most of the design work has be done and the project is ready for market. This project has been delayed for a while because of all the negotiations, rezoning, existing leases, and above all the sheer scale of the multi-use project. In my ten years with Tridel I can't recall pulling a project being marketed pre-construction. There may be delays to opening but Tridel has one of the best records in North America for completion. The other thing you can count on is great lifestyle and recreational amenities.

 

[Solaris]

ooopss ... you are right I-42 ... good catch ... edited

 

[Uncle Teddy]

There's no reason they can't redesign the buildings to have the same density but still be under 100m. And if part of the site is zoned for office space they should be forced to provide said office space.

 

[Solaris]

in all fairness ... achieving the same density within a lower height limit may not necessarily be a good thing ... you could end up with a large bulky stumpy mass of a structure (which is ugly) ... the same density can be achieved with a slimmer tall tower which helps to preserve view corridors, enhance sunlight conditions at street level (tall towers have a 'moving' shadow, rather than streets totally shadowed by a short building at 100% site coverage), and improving the skyline

 

[Edward]

Love this design. Hope it makes it even if it is shorter than planned.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I think in its current form, Tridel's development will likely be approved and Bazis' will likely be refused for the following reasons:

1. Hullmark Centre has significant office component, where as Emerald Park does not; to get approval, Bazis will probably need to change plans to include more substantial office space
2. Hullmark Centre is right at the intersection of Yonge+Sheppard, which warrants higher density/height than Bazis located 1 block away from Yonge+Sheppard intersection ... I think Bazis deserves height in excess of 100m, but their tower (given location) should be shorter than Hullmark Centre to signify the hierarchy of the towers with importance placed at the intersection
3. existing approved high-density residential developments are located in the southeast quadrant of Yonge+Sheppard, while residential towers do not exist in the southwest quadrant of Yonge+Sheppard (there's only the Nestle office bldg)

There's no point in distinguishing between "significant" and "not significant" when we're talking about, what 100K sq.ft for Bazis and 250K sq.ft for Hullmark? Is that 100K figure still what's actually proposed? Both would be significant influxes of jobs but both are also not significant compared to how much office space could have been added by purely office developments on these blocks (though office towers would actually have to get built for that potential to be realized). Bazis also has a smaller site, and does not have the prime corner frontage Hullmark does. These mixed complexes, condos + some office + a fair bit of retail, are great and do not squander their sites (not that you think they do, I'm just saying it here).

Distance from the actual intersection is a moot point because half of Hullmark is one full "block" away from the corner, too. The only consideration would be to skyline contouring, which, since everything in North York Centre is almost the exact same height, will probably not be a factor. Bazis will have direct subway access, which is really the most important prerequisite for a development being 'central.' The hierarchy that will matter is the transition down to single family houses, which could really come back to bite Bazis if the secondary plan and other precedents around North York Centre are interpreted/followed literally. There's going to at least one person who will have an absolute cow about the prospect of 30 storeys adjacent to 2-3 storeys, as if 18 or 20 storeys next to 2-3 storeys is *so* much better.

The lack of any residential towers in the SW speaks to the flaws and arbitrariness in the secondary plan. There clearly should be more development in the SW, but since the secondary plan boundaries were practically formed on a house by house basis, the service road is stuck going where it is and nothing much else aside from Bazis will be permitted in the SW. There's one house nestled right up against the 401 - it has several acres of land and would be a great site for a few condos...the views over the 401/valley/golf course would be wonderful. Hell, even a "401 station" on the Yonge subway wouldn't be an outrageous idea if anything else was redeveloped...

 

[adma]

The lack of any residential towers in the SW speaks to the flaws and arbitrariness in the secondary plan. There clearly should be more development in the SW, but since the secondary plan boundaries were practically formed on a house by house basis, the service road is stuck going where it is and nothing much else aside from Bazis will be permitted in the SW. There's one house nestled right up against the 401 - it has several acres of land and would be a great site for a few condos...the views over the 401/valley/golf course would be wonderful. Hell, even a "401 station" on the Yonge subway wouldn't be an outrageous idea if anything else was redeveloped...

I pray for Yorkminster Citadel. We need all the 50s modern religious landmarks we can get

 

[Solaris]

I will disagree with you scarberiankhatru

Hullmark Centre's significant office component (as I call it) includes a 10 storeys office building acting as the base of the 5 Sheppard Avenue East tower and occupying the large bulky podum seen in the renderings, this space in fact provides ample of office space similar to a small scale office tower development, and the ground floor and entirely dedicated to retail space (except of residential + office lobby) ... whereas this is something not found in the Bazis project, at max they are only proposing portions of the ground + 2nd floor, plus the 3rd floor as offices with limited ground floor retail spaces

distance from the interesection is in fact not a 'moot point', that could very well be a determination what is appropriate and what is not ... while true Hullmark Centre extends one full block from the intersection out to the future Annadale extension, at least Tridel's block is continuous from Yonge Sheppard southwards thereby allowing a built form which encourages pedestrian flow within the building in a weather protected environment

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I will disagree with you scarberiankhatru

Hullmark Centre's significant office component (as I call it) includes a 10 storeys office building acting as the base of the 5 Sheppard Avenue East tower and occupying the large bulky podum seen in the renderings, this space in fact provides ample of office space similar to a small scale office tower development, and the ground floor and entirely dedicated to retail space (except of residential + office lobby) ... whereas this is something not found in the Bazis project, at max they are only proposing portions of the ground + 2nd floor, plus the 3rd floor as offices with limited ground floor retail spaces

distance from the interesection is in fact not a 'moot point', that could very well be a determination what is appropriate and what is not ... while true Hullmark Centre extends one full block from the intersection out to the future Annadale extension, at least Tridel's block is continuous from Yonge Sheppard southwards thereby allowing a built form which encourages pedestrian flow within the building in a weather protected environment

Well, why shouldn't Bazis has less office space and less retail...it's a smaller site with only 1/3 the arterial street frontage. Both sites will have significantly less office space than would be built if pure office towers were built instead of condos + a bit of non-condo uses. Though, really, only Bazis will add retail, since Hullmark is replacing retail with retail.

Distance from the intersection comes into play mostly because the corner, being more visible, is probably a better/logical spot for the office component, and whichever tower houses the offices would be taller, and because of skyline/shadowing contour considerations...which may not even be a real factor since every building along Yonge is almost exactly the same height (give or take some spire elements. There's an old model in the North York Civic Centre from the early 90s showing how monotonously monolithic with office towers this stretch of Yonge would have been today had the demand stayed where it was). Weather protection and pedestrian flows have nothing to do with how high the towers on each site should be allowed to rise. If Bazis' towers end up shorter than expected, the cause would almost certainly be the detached houses across the street requiring a less severe transition.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Sunnyray: I know that others are also making cheap shots in this thread, but from your first posts you've been all-guns-blazing, and I'm not surprised by the reactions you're getting. Plus, the condescension shown with your use of 'Grasshopper' is not a great way to make your initial stand on UT. You have to understand that this forum has seen so many empty-headed NIMBYs pop on by that it's not unreasonable for longtime members to have expected that yet again. It's a pleasant surprise that you actually have some research to back up your assertions.

First of all,... I wouldn't even classify myself as a NIMBY. I was all for this Bazis Emerald Park development when I first heard of it. That is until,... I realize by how much Bazis Emerald Park would exceed the 100m height limit and density limit. I would like to see the Bazis Emerald Park project proceed as long as they obey the city of Toronto 100m height limit, density limit and Area A (0% residential) usage on the north-east part of the lot.

As far as empty-headed NIMBYs,.... I've seen a lot more empty-headed YIYBYs (Yes In YOUR Back-Yards) here.

About your downtown office development assertion however, I don't think that one planner you spoke with has presented the whole picture. The City just did what they could, for example, to get a new SNC Lavalin HQ built at Islington subway station. (That only fell apart when SNC Lavalin wanted tons of parking space there for their employees - it's at a subway station, for goodness sakes). The City has also recently planned for the redevelopment of the Six Points interchange area with significant office space included, and offices remain a major component of future redevelopment plans at Yonge & Eg, NYCC, and SCC as well. The City wouldn't sneeze at or put up road blocks against any of it. No small differential in the higher taxes that would be generated from downtown developments would be enough to derail any plans for projects in commercial nodes around the city.

42

Can you name one office building currently under construction or recently completed in Toronto outside of the downtown core? A real building,.... not a coulda woulda shoulda imaginary building.

In the last 11 years since Toronto's amalgamation,... in downtown North York there have been only ONE new office building developed,.... Aegon Place, a 20 storey office tower finished in 2004, just south of Mel Lastman Square.

Between 1974 when the Yonge Subway was extended to downtown North York to amalgamation in 1998, the former City of North York was able to attract development of at least 15 office buildings to downtown North York (along Yonge Street from Finch to 401 within existing and proposed service ring road, Beecroft Rd to west and Doris Ave to east,.. Yonge Street and 100-200m east and west),... including Warner Brothers building (just moved out), Proctor & Gamble building, Nestle building, Intercon Building, Sheppard Centre (2 office towers - one tower housing Bank of Montreal offices), Government of Canada (Joseph Sheppard Federal) Building, Madison Centre, Ford Centre for Performing Arts, North York City Centre (2 office towers plus hotel tower), Royal Bank building at Yonge & Hollywood, Scotiabank building at Yonge & Hillcrest Ave, CIBC building at Yonge & Norton Ave, Bel Air Direct building, North American Life Insurance building, Xerox building,... these last 3 buildings are just north of Finch along Yonge. Other than that, I'm referring to the exact same downtown North York area along Yonge from Finch down to 401 mainly within service ring road area. And I'm not including Heinz Canada building and Equifax building which are both east of the service ring road of Doris.

From at least 15 office buildings built in downtown North York in a 24 year period from 1974 to 1998,... to just one new office building built in the last 11 years in downtown North York since Toronto's Amalgamation.

Since 1997, in the last 12 years since Empress Walk (phase 1) was completed,... I'm using Empress Walk as a benchmark because that's the first major residential condo development in Downtown North York granted Yonge Street frontage,.... whereas the original plan for downtown North York was for only office buildings to be granted Yonge Street frontage. But I could also use 1998 as the benchmark since that's the year of Toronto Amalgamation,... especially if I want to blame the city of Toronto for this mess. NOTE: I'm also defining downtown North York as the area along Yonge Street within the existing and proposed service ring road (Beecroft Road to west and Doris Ave to east,... basically Yonge Street and 100-200m to east and west) from Finch Ave to 401. Anyways,... in the last 12 years since Empress Walk (phase 1) was completed,... In the downtown North York area,... there as been ONLY ONE new office building built in downtown North York,... that's Aegon Place, a 20 storey office building completed in 2004. From at least 15 office buildings built in downtown North York in a 24 year period from 1974 to 1998,... to just one new office building built in the last 12 years in downtown North York since Toronto's Amalgamation.

In that same 11-12 year period time period since Toronto's Amalgamation, there's been 45-50 brand new residential condo building completed or currently under construction in the downtown North York area,... and I'm not even including all the condo buildings east of Doris, along Sheppard East closer to Bayview and Leslie (I'm not including Concord Adex 20 condo tower Concord Park Place). I'm just talking about buildings along Yonge Street and basically within the service ring road from Finch down to 401,.. and development like Bazis Emerald Park and Tridel-Hullmark Centre that haven't even started construction are not included.

In the last 11-12 years since Toronto's amalgamation, in downtown North York there's only been ONE office tower built compared to 45-50 residential condo towers. Does this sound like the City of Toronto is encouraging office buildings to develop in downtown North York?

And the majority of the residential condos built have more storeys than that one 20 storey office building. Is this urban planning??? Where are all these residential condo residents supposed to work? Condos attract urban people,... mostly with urban office type jobs,.... so most of them work downtown. It's insane to drive from downtown North York to downtown Toronto so most take Yonge Subway,.. which is now operating at basically 100% full capacity during AM rush hour,... its so bad that if you live in midtown Toronto around Eglinton south to Bloor,... good luck getting on the packed southbound Yonge subway train,.. how many sardine packed subway train passes by before they find one they can squeeze into. This is not urban planning,... this is insanity!

If you're going to develop residential condos,... then develop commercial office spaces near those condos so people can actually work close to where they live,.. so people don't need to commute to the other end of the city for work. We don't need urbanization for the sake of urbanization,... we need sustainable urbanization.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

sunray, if you don't like tall buildings, you are in the wrong area, nay the wrong city. That's your problem, if you don't like it, move to Newmarket. This is really foolish, we're talking about Yonge and Sheppard here, get with the program, it's 2009, it'll be 2010 next year. Time's are changing, shape up or ship out.

I will not be making any other posts besides this one in response or otherwise.

Hkrick88,... I didn't say I don't like tall buildings. Why are you putting words into my mouth? Why do people on this board without a valid arguement always put words into other people's mouths?

HKrick88,... Heck, I love Hong Kong and it's full of tall buildings that dwarf the tallest condos in Toronto. Hong Kong is a great urban centre,... and one thing that makes it so great is that all those tall buildings blend in together and Hong Kong has the city infrastructure including a dense network of subways to support it,... those tall buildings in Hong Kong generally don't stick out like a sore thumb.

HKrick88, if you want Hong Kong type tall 100 storey condo buildings, go back to Hong Kong.

With Bazis Emerald Park,.... it's not a question of tall buildings,... its a matter of building within the city plans for the area so that it'll blend in with the existing neighbourhood and the other tall buildings in the area and work without robbing the existing neighbourhood of infrastructure services. If all the other condo and office building developers that build within North York downtown area can conform to the area height restriction, density and land use,... why can't Bazis Emerald Park do the same. Why should Bazis Emerald Park be treated any differently than any other developer???

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

sunnyray:

I know the history of planning behind the NYCC. The question I have for you is - are you having an issue with this project because of the change in land use, or is it about using the change in land use as an excuse to oppose this project, with the real reasons behind the opposition based on other factors such as built form?

AoD

Its not just the change in land use for that north-east corner of the lot, it's also the height limit and density limit. Bazis Emerald Park at 142m will exceed the 100m for the area and dwarf all other buildings in the area. Bazis Emerald Park wants a 6.0 density which exceeds the existing 4.5 for the area.

If all the other condo and office building developers that build within North York downtown area can conform to the area height restriction, density and land use,... why can't Bazis Emerald Park do the same. Why should Bazis Emerald Park be treated any differently than any other developer???

We're not talking about Bazis Emerald Park exceeding the height limit by a few meters for artistic purposes,... we're talking about Bazis Emerald Park totally ignoring the area height limit and shoe-horning in more people than density allows in an attempt to maximize their own profit and dwarf all other buildings in the area.

BTW, what have Bazis ever actually built? For the life of me, I can't find anything Bazis have actually finish building,... anywhere. I can find a lot of mock up picture of artist renderings of buildings Bazis hope to build,... but nothing they have actually completed. Anyone? If anyone can provide a link to a project Bazis have actually completed, please do. Thanks.

Right now,... Yonge and Sheppard intersection,... 3 out of the 4 corners of that intersection is empty parking lot or plaza waiting for redevelopment. A developer's dream,... not only two major roads intersecting,... but also Yonge Subway line and Sheppard Stubway line intersecting,.... a built up downtown urban centre,... and the 401 is just a stone throw away. In north-east corner, existing Sheppard Centre from 1970s- two office towers with Yonge Street frontage and 3 apartment towers in back. In south-east corner, we have RIO-CAN plaza with metro and National Gym getting ready for redevelopment into Tridel Hullmark Centre,... at 164m exceeding 100m limit and with only one third of one tower going to office space while the rest and all of second tower goes to residential condos,... in an Area A (0% residential). In south-west corner, we have long lost developer from 90's originally wanting to build twin tower to 21 storey Nestle building,... just south of this block, we have Bazis Emerald Park,... at 142 storey, exceeding 100m limit and also violating Area A (0% residential) on north-east part of block. In north-west corner, we have city owned land,... city still trying to figure out what to do with it. If a major intersection like Yonge & Sheppard can't be developed with office building as the city of Toronto intends,.... there's something really wrong,... something is fundamentally broken.

BTW, I would like to thank Observer Walt and the moderators, AlvinofDiaspar and Interchange42,... for cleaning up some of the post here. Now we're getting a good healthy debate going, exchanging opinions, research, knowledge and ideas about a project and area we all care about in a city we're all passionate about. And that's what these www.urbantoronto.ca boards should be for.