Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[toonderly]

Any word on when this is being handed over to the ttc? What’s the latest holdup? This thread will be beside itself the day it finally happens.

What are you thinking of by handed over to the ttc? I thought that the handover had already happened and that was when training started. Currently if I understand correctly the TTC is running the revenue service demonstration which is the last stage before opening.

 

[TOtramz]

Any word on when this is being handed over to the ttc? What’s the latest holdup? This thread will be beside itself the day it finally happens.

Line 5 operations are currently based out of the TTC Hillcrest central control facility, but the line has not been legally handed over yet to the TTC.
That will happen after RSD is completed and successful enough to declared substantial completion

 

[nfitz]

Line 5 operations are currently based out of the TTC Hillcrest central control facility, but the line has not been legally handed over yet to the TTC.

Most of it, other than some stuff at the transfer stations will remain under Metrolinx ownership. TTC isn't doing maintenance, etc. - that's for Metrolinx.

What legal instrument are you referring to @TOtramz?

Never. LA county is bigger population than all
of Ontario. Toronto will
Never get there as we don’t have the ECONOMY of LA to support such massive growth.

LA County? The 2024 population is listed as about 9.8 million. The GTHA population 2024 population estimate is 8.3 million. And the Ontario mid-2024 estimate was 16.1 million. Meanwhile LA county is about 30% bigger in area.

I feel I'm missing something here.

 

[bono47]

What are you thinking of by handed over to the ttc? I thought that the handover had already happened and that was when training started. Currently if I understand correctly the TTC is running the revenue service demonstration which is the last stage before opening.

when it has been legally handed over after RSD is complete, similar to what recently happened with Finch.

 

[smallspy]

Was thinking ideal scenario to point out that some combination of 2 and 3 cars could be possible to run on Day 1 to maximize route capacity. If 95 minutes is the realistic round trip time, then we could do 21 two car trains and 8 three car trains at 3.25 min or something similar to keep 7-10 spare cars? Do you think having such a low spare ratio is feasible?

I'm not sure what benefit would be derived from mixing 2- and 3-car trains. From a passenger standpoint, it is better to run shorter trains more frequently, as that reduces the amount of time waiting for the next train. Conversely from the TTC's standpoint, running longer trains less frequently is better as that reduces staffing requirements and thus direct operating costs. Mixing trains seems to arrive at a "worst of both worlds" situation.

The normal spares ratio for modern equipment is 20% to 25%. On a 76 car fleet, that means that they will want to keep somewhere between 15 and 19 cars on hold from service at the peak times.

Dan

 

[nfitz]

I'm not sure what benefit would be derived from mixing 2- and 3-car trains. From a passenger standpoint, it is better to run shorter trains more frequently, as that reduces the amount of time waiting for the next train.

As a passenger, the only issue I've had with a mix of short-trains and long-trains (at different times of the week), is the running from where you are standing to the train. I've had this on GO during the pandemic (easier now that the screens show the train length), on the New York subway, and on Line 1 when they used to run the shorter trains on weekends.

 

[urbanclient]

I'm not sure what benefit would be derived from mixing 2- and 3-car trains. From a passenger standpoint, it is better to run shorter trains more frequently, as that reduces the amount of time waiting for the next train. Conversely from the TTC's standpoint, running longer trains less frequently is better as that reduces staffing requirements and thus direct operating costs. Mixing trains seems to arrive at a "worst of both worlds" situation.

The normal spares ratio for modern equipment is 20% to 25%. On a 76 car fleet, that means that they will want to keep somewhere between 15 and 19 cars on hold from service at the peak times.

Dan

I'll try some napkin math with a higher spare ratio. I understand TTC Line 1 and 2 both have a 25+% spare ratio currently. Reasons not worth mentioning right now. But let's say 95 minute round trip, 56 of 76 cars are used on 28 trainsets, that means peak headways 3.4 minutes and peak capacity between 5,600 and 8,800 passengers per hour per direction with each two-car trainset carrying 320 to 500 passengers (depending on density).

 

[nfitz]

I'll try some napkin math with a higher spare ratio. I understand TTC Line 1 and 2 both have a 25+% spare ratio currently. Reasons not worth mentioning right now. But let's say 95 minute round trip, 56 of 76 cars are used on 28 trainsets, that means peak headways 3.4 minutes and peak capacity between 5,600 and 8,800 passengers per hour per direction with each two-car trainset carrying 320 to 500 passengers (depending on density).

Before Covid, Line 1 had 65 trains in service at peak. And there are 76 train-sets. That's a 14.5% spare ratio.

Yeah, Line 2 has more spares - but this is because they got the old Line 1 and Line 4 trains, which does exceed more than they need for Line 2 operation.

I think you used the current number of Line 1 trains (56) which is still reduced since the post-Covid ridership drop, and more spread out peaks. If anything, this means that peak ridership on Eglinton could also be lower than originally predicted because the same changes would presumably apply to Line 5. On the other hand, perhaps not, as both Line 2 and Line 4 now have been restored to the pre-Covid number of trains (46 on Line 2).

If you math is correct, then that increases the capacity from between 5,600 to 8,800 to 6,500 to 10,200. If we are really lucky, demand IS higher, and that leaves the short-turn option while the next car order, that they are already planning, is received.

 

[ciceror]

This morning I went into my backyard in Richmond Hill and from my deck I could get a glimpse of 16th avenue and I saw a huge truck pass by transporting what seemed to be the end carriages of the line 5 train

 

[A 6264]

Regarding the issue of short and long trains, there was a time, decades ago, when the trains on our subway system ran short 4-car (rather than 6-car) trains in the evening, after rush hour. Sadly, we are no longer able to sit or stand at the very front of trains and look at the tracks during travel. But I used to see big black signs below track level, for the benefit of drivers, with a white number "4" or "6" printed on it. The "6" was always at the far end of the train, meaning a full 6 car train is to stop there. The "4" sign could be next to the "6" sign, if short trains are to stop at the far end of the station, or they may be a hundred feet back if the train is to stop at the end of the station where they came in. Even though these signs are long obsolete, they were still there last time we were allowed to look out the front of a moving train, pre covid, and they may still be there, at least on line 2.

Similar to what was said in a post above, when standing on the plaform waiting for a train, I used to get annoyed when a short train either went past me, or stopped short of where I was standing, so I had to run to catch it. I wished they would put up signs telling the public that the end of trains may not go past a certain point on the platform in evenings, rather than having hidden signs just for drivers.

So if they are going to run short trains again, I hope they put up signs warning which parts of the platforms may be beyond the end of a short train. To paraphrase a quote from Dr. Strangelove, "Why didn't you tell us?" "We were saving it for a surprise!"

 

[drum118]

Regarding the issue of short and long trains, there was a time, decades ago, when the trains on our subway system ran short 4-car (rather than 6-car) trains in the evening, after rush hour. Sadly, we are no longer able to sit or stand at the very front of trains and look at the tracks during travel. But I used to see big black signs below track level, for the benefit of drivers, with a white number "4" or "6" printed on it. The "6" was always at the far end of the train, meaning a full 6 car train is to stop there. The "4" sign could be next to the "6" sign, if short trains are to stop at the far end of the station, or they may be a hundred feet back if the train is to stop at the end of the station where they came in. Even though these signs are long obsolete, they were still there last time we were allowed to look out the front of a moving train, pre covid, and they may still be there, at least on line 2.

Similar to what was said in a post above, when standing on the plaform waiting for a train, I used to get annoyed when a short train either went past me, or stopped short of where I was standing, so I had to run to catch it. I wished they would put up signs telling the public that the end of trains may not go past a certain point on the platform in evenings, rather than having hidden signs just for drivers.

So if they are going to run short trains again, I hope they put up signs warning which parts of the platforms may be beyond the end of a short train. To paraphrase a quote from Dr. Strangelove, "Why didn't you tell us?" "We were saving it for a surprise!"

There are systems in the US that use marking on the platform edge to see where shorter trains will end. We will never see a 4 car subway train in Toronto on line 1 & 2 again..

As for Eglinton, the first car will stop at the far end regardless if it is one or 2 or 3 cars long from what I was told years ago. Then time has change for this line and never know what ML wants to happen now, TTC hasn;t run duel cars in service since the 60's that were PCC nor have they with the new fleet wiyj Line 5 being the first. The only places I have seen 2-3 cars LRV sets stop at the far end of the platform.

 

[urbanclient]

[...]Line 1 ran with 65/76 trainsets during peak in early 2020, so a low spare ratio is not entirely unheard of.

[...]95 minutes round trip is a safe figure. Let's assume 64 of 76 cars are used on 32 trainsets, that means peak headways of just under 3 minutes and peak capacity between 6000 and 10,000 passengers per hour per direction with each two-car trainset carrying 320 to 500 passengers (depending on density). Metrolinx forecasted 5,400 demand pphpd by 2031.
[...]
For reference, peak Line 2 peak demand was 23,000 to 26,000 pphpd and capacity was 24,000 to 38,000 pre-covid. Are we assuming Line 5 would only hit 20-25% of Line 2 demand and run with around 25-50% of Line 2 capacity? Fine.

Line 2 peak capacity is back to pre-covid levels as of a few weeks ago*

Before Covid, Line 1 had 65 trains in service at peak. And there are 76 train-sets. That's a 14.5% spare ratio.

Yeah, Line 2 has more spares - but this is because they got the old Line 1 and Line 4 trains, which does exceed more than they need for Line 2 operation.

I think you used the current number of Line 1 trains (56) which is still reduced since the post-Covid ridership drop, and more spread out peaks. If anything, this means that peak ridership on Eglinton could also be lower than originally predicted because the same changes would presumably apply to Line 5. On the other hand, perhaps not, as both Line 2 and Line 4 now have been restored to the pre-Covid number of trains (46 on Line 2).

If you math is correct, then that increases the capacity from between 5,600 to 8,800 to 6,500 to 10,200. If we are really lucky, demand IS higher, and that leaves the short-turn option while the next car order, that they are already planning, is received.

I arbitrarily chose 56 out of 76 for a safe buffer with @smallspy 's 20-25% ratio in mind. Yeah, subway usage recently is about 76% of pre-covid weekday boardings and 81% weekly total boardings according to TTC CEO's reports. Combine that with other factors like the population being about 13% greater than expected for 5,400 pphpd demand. People working from home more. More skyscrapers than expected etc...

It really is hard to say how high ridership will be.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

This morning I went into my backyard in Richmond Hill and from my deck I could get a glimpse of 16th avenue and I saw a huge truck pass by transporting what seemed to be the end carriages of the line 5 train

What you saw is likely are Hurontario LRT or Ottawa LRT trains coming from Alstom Brampton.

 

[Undead]

I know this is off-topic, but I wonder if and when we will catch up to/surpass Los Angeles.

Hopefully never.

 

[urbanclient]

I know this is off-topic, but I wonder if and when we will catch up to/surpass Los Angeles.

In many ways, we are already caught up. We have a much, much denser downtown core with 3 times the skyscrapers and more than 5 times the subway/LRT (rapid transit) ridership. The 87,940 sqkm Greater Los Angeles area has 18 million people but is also 1/10th the land area of Ontario. Greater LA's outer exurbs, are more populated than neighbouring areas of the GTHA, but when looking at the core areas 630 sqkm Toronto, 8,200 sqkm GTHA, Toronto is clearly denser.