Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Midtown Urbanist]

IMO the subway network needs to be uploaded to the Province like they tried in 2018. The TTC has proven that they are incapable of operating and maintaining a transit system.

Did not consider this political aspect but yes, if the Line 5 opening is mired with the same issues then the momentum for uploading the TTC to Metrolinx will never be stronger, whether it is an effective solution or not.

 

[adys123]

The issue is the overly cautious for no reason safety crazy TTC doesn't care. They have no interest in winning over the public. They will drive the trains slow. But they would on a new Metro too. Luckily the Ontario Line is automated, although maybe the TTC will slow that down too, they already did for ATC on Line 1.

IMO the subway network needs to be uploaded to the Province like they tried in 2018. The TTC has proven that they are incapable of operating and maintaining a transit system.

Well, lucky for you (and maybe all of us), the TTC will not be involved in operating the Ontario Line for the first 30 years.

 

[Richard White]

The issue is the overly cautious for no reason safety crazy TTC doesn't care.

Actually this has more to do with the public inquiry from Ottawa after their LRT debacle. They are trying to avoid a repeat of that incident.

A years delayed line is an operational disaster. The PR is already so bad. Of course they want it to go perfectly, but that will never happen. They need to open the line. They have had enough time.

True but at the same time, if the signal system fails or a train gets stuck somewhere underground that is not a good thing. That will cause more questions than answers.

As the saying goes "You have once chance to get this right. Don't f*** it up"

 

[eglinton1661]

From TTC board meeting happening right now:

- Myers: what is the estimated run time for Line 5. TTC staff: contractual number for round trip time is 98 minutes during rush hour and 90 minutes outside rush hour
- The current schedule we have for RSD is currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip

 

[duffo]

From TTC board meeting happening right now:

- Myers: what is the estimated run time for Line 5. TTC staff: contractual number for round trip time is 98 minutes during rush hour and 90 minutes outside rush hour
- The current schedule we have for RSD is currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip

For anyone wondering, that's an RSD average speed of 20km/h on Line 5.

 

[urbanclient]

If the trains on line 5 travel at "Streetcar" speeds in the underground portion, it will be the death knell for this line. It'll also be the end for low floor LRTs in Toronto. It'll just confirm in everyone's mind that a subway should have been built along Eglinton.

After the debacle on Line 6, the city has only ONE shot at line 5. That's it, just one! Mess it up, and it's going to be full tilt on subways for the next 1000 years in Toronto.

It would also be the death knell, if they drive Line 5 like a streetcar in the eastern above ground section.

***Breaking news***

Let's get the facts straight, a 34 bus travelling at 15.2 km/h beat the Line 5 Eglinton east of Victoria Park (O'Connor). The 34 bus had up to 10 stops before Kennedy, while Line 5 had 5 mandatory stops. 3.3/(13/60)= 15.2 km/h.

More to the point, the eastern mostly-at-grade section of Line 5 Eglinton is 7.7 km long. If Line 5 manages even 15 km/h speeds, that would imply a 30.8 minute travel time for that section. (7.7/15)*60=30.8 minutes; This is entirely congruent with my earlier estimate of 30 minutes for the eastern section (see previous post).

Combine that with the 21 minutes for the underground section (Source; @smallspy ), that's a total end-to-end time of ~51 minutes.

Don't say I didn't tell you so. It's the same operator, the TTC, for both Line 5 and 6. Do you really think they will be operated that differently?

I did some rough math yesterday [...]

Therefore, Line 5 east of the Brentcliffe tunnel portal should take at least 30 minutes if operated like Line 6.
Total end-to-end trip times on Line 5 Eglinton should be 51 minutes for 19km for an average of 22.35 km/h.

TL;DR Unless the Line 5 operators are speedsters and can somehow squeeze 9 minutes of further time savings to get 30 down to 21 minutes, there is no chance Line 5 ends up being 42 minutes end-to-end on average.

I am calling it right now, there is NO way Line 5 will be 42 minutes end-to-end, much less 38 minutes if operated like Line 6 on opening day. It won't be any faster than 50 minutes until operations significantly improve, if ever.

I was right. Line 5 Eglinton is completely cooked. Assuming 12 minutes recovery time at terminuses. The round trip is in fact 100 minutes, or 50 minutes end-to-end.

- Myers: what is the estimated run time for Line 5. TTC staff: contractual number for round trip time is 98 minutes during rush hour and 90 minutes outside rush hour
- The current schedule we have for RSD is currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip
- Myers: are there any measures being considered to speed up the runtime? TTC staff: Any moves would have to be done in consideration with Mosaic and Metrolinx. At this point in time cannot say there are alternatives being discussed.

 

[duffo]

Also, it will almost be the death knell, if they drive Line 5 like a streetcar in the eastern section.

***Breaking news***



I was right. Line 5 Eglinton is completely cooked. Assuming 12 minutes recovery time at terminuses. The round trip is in fact 100 minutes, or 50 minutes end-to-end.

On Line 2, riding from Kennedy to Runnymede (similar distance) is still 42 minutes, only 8 minutes faster. I think "completely cooked" is maybe a slight exaggeration.

 

[urbanclient]

On Line 2, riding from Kennedy to Runnymede (similar distance) is still 42 minutes, only 8 minutes faster. I think "completely cooked" is maybe a slight exaggeration.

A. They advertised 38 minutes for Line 5 Eglinton.

B. The Kennedy to Runnymede is significantly longer due to the curve up to Kennedy from Main Street. Line 2 ~30 km/h is much faster than ~22 km/h get off the copium.

Line 5 Eglinton is more or less a straight line.

 

[smallspy]

The issue is the overly cautious for no reason safety crazy TTC doesn't care. They have no interest in winning over the public. They will drive the trains slow. But they would on a new Metro too. Luckily the Ontario Line is automated, although maybe the TTC will slow that down too, they already did for ATC on Line 1.

IMO the subway network needs to be uploaded to the Province like they tried in 2018. The TTC has proven that they are incapable of operating and maintaining a transit system.

And what makes you think that Metrolinx would do a better job?

Hint: Go look at GO timetables from 10 years ago and compare them to today.

Dan

 

[ThenWhat]

Why is Line 4 on Sheppard so disproportionately long (vs where it goes in reality)?

Line 4 was always roughly geographically correct to Line 2. It's really Line 5 (a new addition to the map) and the eastern end of Line 2 that messes it up. And they probably didn't even think to fix that.

Line 4 actually does go that far compared to Line 2. Don Mills is just about at Woodbine.

It looked normal until Line 5 was included, then the scale got thrown off

It's just fine for its purpose --- to show the sequence of stations, and connections. It is not supposed to be, and it does not pretend to be, a geographical map.

 

[Bojaxs]

And what makes you think that Metrolinx would do a better job?

Hint: Go look at GO timetables from 10 years ago and compare them to today.

Dan

But look at how Metrolinx & Alstom seem to place more emphasis on speed and "on time" performance with the GO trains. Including having doors close 1 minute before departure. Could they migrate this mentality over to Lines 5 & 6?

TTC and their Union appear to operate in a completely opposite manner. Over emphasis on safety, resulting in slow trains. No one's penalized for poor "on time" performance.

EDIT: Wasn't Verster and some higher ups in MX recieving bonuses if "on time" performances were met for the year? Hence Verster introducing the "closing doors 1 minute before departure" rule.

 

[eglinton1661]

From TTC board meeting happening right now:

- Myers: what is the estimated run time for Line 5. TTC staff: contractual number for round trip time is 98 minutes during rush hour and 90 minutes outside rush hour
- The current schedule we have for RSD is currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip

Full transcript:

Myers: Was there ever a discussion about publicly updating the timeline with these new end to end run times [for line 6]?

TTC staff: No, I can't recall that there was ever a discussion about there being a form of communication, because this was a contractual issue. I think that they were just wanting to have that discussion internally with the TTC and with the city, with mosaic and with Metrolinx,

Myers: given everything, is the position of staff that that would be, that that was the correct decision, and would staff take the similar decision if we were to talk about line 5, in terms of if it was known that the end to end run times would be significantly different than what was publicly stated. Should that be publicly expressed ahead of the lines opening to set expectations?

TTC staff: We were always looking to for ways to make the system run faster. In terms of whether or not it should've been communicated I think that's a decision that would have to have been made by Metrolinx in consultation with the city and the TTC, so there wasn't any sort of indication that they were gonna say hey, listen, it was 30 minutes before and it's now 45. There wasn't any sort of discussion on that. Should there have been? I think that's probably a discussion that should be had maybe as a potential lessons learned.

Myers: So what is the current estimated end to end run time for line 5? The public number. And is that number still accurate?

TTC staff: The contractual number for Line 5 is a round trip time of 98 minutes during rush hour and 90 minutes out of rush hour.

Myers: And is that accurate?

TTC staff: The current schedule that we have for revenue service demonstration to allow the line to actually achieve the performance that is needed, we are currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip.

Myers: And is there any additional measures that can be taken to lower that 112 minutes? And is that during rush hour or non rush hour time?

TTC staff: similar to line 6 we've adopted a single run time for all periods until we have the operational experience so that we can adjust the times accordingly.

Myers: and are there measures being looked at to reduce that end to end run time?

TTC staff: if there are any measures being considered they have to be consdiered in consultation with the TTC as the operators as well as with mosaic transit group [sic] as the broader system operators. So at this point in time specifically I can't say there are these alternatives.

 

[eglinton1661]

At 112 minutes round trip, 56 minutes one way, Line 5 would have an average speed of 20.4 km/h

Here's the Crosstown website from 2016 claiming an average speed of 28km/h

https://web.archive.org/web/20160718200221/http://www.thecrosstown.ca/the-project

 

[urbanclient]

Full transcript:

Myers: Was there ever a discussion about publicly updating the timeline with these new end to end run times [for line 6]?

TTC staff: No, I can't recall that there was ever a discussion about there being a form of communication, because this was a contractual issue. I think that they were just wanting to have that discussion internally with the TTC and with the city, with mosaic and with Metrolinx,

Myers: given everything, is the position of staff that that would be, that that was the correct decision, and would staff take the similar decision if we were to talk about line 5, in terms of if it was known that the end to end run times would be significantly different than what was publicly stated. Should that be publicly expressed ahead of the lines opening to set expectations?

TTC staff: We were always looking to for ways to make the system run faster. In terms of whether or not it should've been communicated I think that's a decision that would have to have been made by Metrolinx in consultation with the city and the TTC, so there wasn't any sort of indication that they were gonna say hey, listen, it was 30 minutes before and it's now 45. There wasn't any sort of discussion on that. Should there have been? I think that's probably a discussion that should be had maybe as a potential lessons learned.

Myers: So what is the current estimated end to end run time for line 5? The public number. And is that number still accurate?

TTC staff: The contractual number for Line 5 is a round trip time of 98 minutes during rush hour and 90 minutes out of rush hour.

Myers: And is that accurate?

TTC staff: The current schedule that we have for revenue service demonstration to allow the line to actually achieve the performance that is needed, we are currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip.

Myers: And is there any additional measures that can be taken to lower that 112 minutes? And is that during rush hour or non rush hour time?

TTC staff: similar to line 6 we've adopted a single run time for all periods until we have the operational experience so that we can adjust the times accordingly.

Myers: and are there measures being looked at to reduce that end to end run time?

TTC staff: if there are any measures being considered they have to be consdiered in consultation with the TTC as the operators as well as with mosaic transit group [sic] as the broader system operators. So at this point in time specifically I can't say there are these alternatives.

I think everyone here is surprisingly calm after being told that a round trip on Line 5 Eglinton is going to be 112 minutes (presumably including recovery time at terminuses). Maybe think about how that 112 gels with Metrolinx's previous claim of 38 minutes end-to-end.

I was right. Line 5 Eglinton is completely cooked. Assuming 12 minutes recovery time at terminuses. The round trip is in fact 100 minutes, or 50 minutes end-to-end.

 

[micheal_can]

I think I need context.
Lets say there was a race.
Line 5/6
Bus
Bike
Car

During rush hour, Who would win? By how much?
Off rush hour, who would win? By how much?

If it takes 100 minutes on the LRT, but 110 by car or bus, then even though it is slow, it still is faster than the other options along the route.