Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Monarch Butterfly]

Maybe we should use "gold paint" on the Crosstown light rail vehicles livery?

From link.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Please yes!

What moves the most people on Sheppard, for the most efficient use of dollars, is LRT. If they converted the existing tunnel to vehicles that would allow the line to be extended, travel times would remain the same between Don Mills and Yonge. In Scarborough, for the $4.5 billion that is being proposed to extend the subway 3 stations, you could instead build a 50-station LRT network and have $1 billion left over - with higher projected ridership.

The King streetcar carries more riders than Line 3 and Line 4 combined!

King is like 3* as long as both lines and I have no doubt that everyone here believes that there should be a subway on King (or Queen). We shouldn't touch Sheppard until we know exactly where Relief Line north will terminate, it might be better to extend the subway part of the way to Victoria Park if that alignment is chosen.

 

[ssiguy2]

Eglinton should have been grade separated from the beginning and the huge at-grade sections with it's large number of stops will greatly slow the system down, reduce frequency ability, and be less reliable. It will also be more expensive to run than a grade separated system because it can't be automated. It's the worst of all possible worlds.

 

[nfitz]

Maybe we should use "gold paint" on the Crosstown light rail vehicles livery?

I thought it looked pretty good on the Flexitys in Vancouver on the Olympic Line.

 

[Hopkins123]

Eglinton should have been grade separated from the beginning and the huge at-grade sections with it's large number of stops will greatly slow the system down, reduce frequency ability, and be less reliable. It will also be more expensive to run than a grade separated system because it can't be automated. It's the worst of all possible worlds.

At least there's still opportunities to prevent the Etobicoke section of the Crosstown from becoming a glorified streetcar. I pity Scarborough, it got screwed again.

 

[nfitz]

Eglinton should have been grade separated from the beginning and the huge at-grade sections with it's large number of stops will greatly slow the system down, reduce frequency ability, and be less reliable.

The line is costing $5.3 billion. It was orginally estimated that grade-separating it would add 50% to the cost ... there's no way that an addtiional $2.6 billion would be justified.

Large number of stops? There are only 10 at-grade stops. And only 6 at-grade stops in Scarborough and 2 in East York where cars have to cross the tracks.

At least there's still opportunities to prevent the Etobicoke section of the Crosstown from becoming a glorified streetcar. I pity Scarborough, it got screwed again.

Stop spacing are much further apart on this rapid transit line than a downtown streetcar line.

Where Scarborough is getting screwed is replacing the entire Line 3 (which has 6 stations) with a single subway station at Scarborough centre. For that $3.5 billion cost, Scarborough could have 3 rapid transit lines with 50 stops. Including 9 stations on the still grade-separated Line 3!

I'm not sure why people are advocating for building 1 subway station with lower ridership than the originally 50-stop LRT network!

 

[44 North]

The line is costing $5.3 billion. It was orginally estimated that grade-separating it would add 50% to the cost ... there's no way that an addtiional $2.6 billion would be justified.

But if it utilized Line 3 and prevented SSE (~$3bn) there'd be some justification.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The line is costing $5.3 billion. It was orginally estimated that grade-separating it would add 50% to the cost ... there's no way that an addtiional $2.6 billion would be justified.

Large number of stops? There are only 10 at-grade stops. And only 6 at-grade stops in Scarborough and 2 in East York where cars have to cross the tracks.

Stop spacing are much further apart on this rapid transit line than a downtown streetcar line.

Where Scarborough is getting screwed is replacing the entire Line 3 (which has 6 stations) with a single subway station at Scarborough centre. For that $3.5 billion cost, Scarborough could have 3 rapid transit lines with 50 stops. Including 9 stations on the still grade-separated Line 3!

I'm not sure why people are advocating for building 1 subway station with lower ridership than the originally 50-stop LRT network!

But there's room for a viaduct on Eglinton, it didn't have to be tunneled. I doubt it would be more than 2 billion dollars for that 8km section. The line would be able to run with 4 car subway trains had they built a viaduct, meaning fewer potential capacity constraints, the addition of automation, saved time, no risk of traffic light issues, fewer complaints from drivers (even though they need to shut up regardless), and fewer stops (shorter trips) should have been studied with that additional cost. I remember reading a report that detailed that the majority of traffic, had it interlined with the existing Line 3, would be traveling between Kennedy and Eglinton Yonge, meaning grade separation should have been justified then.

 

[BurlOak]

The line is costing $5.3 billion. It was orginally estimated that grade-separating it would add 50% to the cost ... there's no way that an addtiional $2.6 billion would be justified.

Actually, the estimate was that the FWLRT and SELRT money would be used to grade separate it - with $500M left over for the Sheppard subway. FWLRT was $1.2B and SELRT was $1.0B. Thus, the premium was $1.7B, or 32%.
And that was before they explored cost savings.

But there's room for a viaduct on Eglinton, it didn't have to be tunneled. I doubt it would be more than 2 billion dollars for that 8km section. The line would be able to run with 4 car subway trains had they built a viaduct, meaning fewer potential capacity constraints, the addition of automation, saved time, no risk of traffic light issues, fewer complaints from drivers (even though they need to shut up regardless), and fewer stops (shorter trips) should have been studied with that additional cost. I remember reading a report that detailed that the majority of traffic, had it interlined with the existing Line 3, would be traveling between Kennedy and Eglinton Yonge, meaning grade separation should have been justified then.

Maybe this
http://www.neptis.org/publications/.../solution-scarborough-impasse-scarborough-wye
or
https://skytrainforsurrey.org/2012/...uing-this-technology-and-not-lrt-on-eglinton/

The cost premium could have easily gone below $1B - even lower if they planned it properly from the start.

But if it utilized Line 3 and prevented SSE (~$3bn) there'd be some justification.

Yah,
It looks like we decided to save a few hundred million in order to spend $3B+.
Penny wise pound foolish.

 

[nfitz]

Actually, the estimate was that the FWLRT and SELRT money would be used to grade separate it - with $500M left over for the Sheppard subway.

They were also estimating back then that Eglinton would cost 2 or 3 billion. It's disingenuous to mix old and new costings simultaneously in this attempt to make transit poorer in Scarborough.

We need to improve transit in Scarborough for more people, rather than your scheme that would improve it for a few people, but screw more in Scarborough than it helps. Scarborough deserves far better than this crazy scheme to close most of the Line 3 subway stations - especially as the anti-transit Progessive Conservatives government has now indefinitely deferred the Lawrence East GO station that was going to be at location of the current Line 3 Lawrence East station.

 

[BurlOak]

They were also estimating back then that Eglinton would cost 2 or 3 billion. It's disingenuous to mix old and new costings simultaneously in this attempt to make transit poorer in Scarborough.

We need to improve transit in Scarborough for more people, rather than your scheme that would improve it for a few people, but screw more in Scarborough than it helps. Scarborough deserves far better than this crazy scheme to close most of the Line 3 subway stations - especially as the anti-transit Progessive Conservatives government has now indefinitely deferred the Lawrence East GO station that was going to be at location of the current Line 3 Lawrence East station.

You are correct - my math is wrong.
The Eglinton and SRT was estimated at $6.5B - which was to be replaced at $8.2B. The $1.7B is correct, but this works out to 26%.

What was once a $6.5b project is now an $8.2b project and limited funds are available for other routes. There will be fewer stations because of their higher cost underground. Metrolinx states that although this version costs more, it “delivers greater benefits”.

https://stevemunro.ca/2012/02/08/metrolinx-contemplates-lrt-vs-subway/

 

[Steve X]

Eglinton should have been grade separated from the beginning and the huge at-grade sections with it's large number of stops will greatly slow the system down, reduce frequency ability, and be less reliable. It will also be more expensive to run than a grade separated system because it can't be automated. It's the worst of all possible worlds.

With the TTC running it. Automate or not someone is gonna get paid sitting in the cab.

If they were to bury the line. I rather see the money go towards the Relief Line north and ending the crosstown at Don Mills. This whole subway idea for Scarborough isn't even getting the line to Sheppard and will never reach Malvern. Grade separation doesn't seem to get very far in this city.

At least there's still opportunities to prevent the Etobicoke section of the Crosstown from becoming a glorified streetcar. I pity Scarborough, it got screwed again.

If they do it the Calgary way, it'll cost the same as a LRT with subway speed. Just plow through every at grade crossing with full priority. No one calls the C-Trains glorified streetcars.

 

[11th]

If they do it the Calgary way, it'll cost the same as a LRT with subway speed. Just plow through every at grade crossing with full priority. No one calls the C-Trains glorified streetcars.

The stations (outside of downtown) and high-level boarding also makes C-Train feels more like a metro; compare that to the outer section of Chicago's Brown line.

 

[Amare]

If they do it the Calgary way, it'll cost the same as a LRT with subway speed. Just plow through every at grade crossing with full priority. No one calls the C-Trains glorified streetcars.

Unfortunately it's the TTC running the Crosstown so they'll find every way possible to cripple the service with speed restrictions, slow orders, stop and proceeds, etc...

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Unfortunately it's the TTC running the Crosstown so they'll find every way possible to cripple the service with speed restrictions, slow orders, stop and proceeds, etc...

So forget about safety? Go at full speed, slam on the brakes, open the doors, close the doors, and go on, ignore the bodies sticking out the doors.