Toronto Eglinton Line 5 Crosstown West Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Rainforest]

I have a question regarding the elevated Alignment, what would they do once it reached the 427? would they go underground?

I think it would have to switch from elevated to underground before it reaches Martin Grove, and then run in a tunnel between Martin Grove and the Renforth terminal.

Still cheaper than tunneling through pretty much all of Etobicoke.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I would not be too worried about the Eglinton East operations though. The demand from those 60+ residential highrises will be very easily handled by the at-grade LRT. The subway-level demand never comes from any kind of local residential density; such demand is always generated by the feeder routes. Downtown is the only area of the city that can fill the subways with walk-in traffic, and even that is due to the very high employment density, not residential density.

Eglinton East is not a trunk route and will have very few feeders, therefore it will not surpass the light-rail capacity.

No contest that the overall Crosstown design will look odd, being a messy blend of competing design concepts. The original concept of tunneling the central section only and doing the rest at grade, certainly was sensible for keeping the cost down. But if we are tunneling the whole west side anyway, and the total cost will be >80% of the cost of a fully grade-separate line, then it would make more sense to build the whole line as grade-separated.

Furthermore, the designers of the original ECLRT put the Don Mills Stn underground to strengthen the eastern section and improve the connection to DRL, but then the actual OL/DRL station shifted to elevated resulting in a very long transfer. If the ECLRT planners knew that OL is going to be elevated at Eglinton, they would probably keep the ECLRT's Don Mills station at grade.

But despite all those oddities, the Crosstown will operate just fine. The eastern section will be a bit slower than it could be, but will not become overloaded. And in the west, should the demand exceed the expectations, the second branch serving the west and short-turning at Laird can be added. Laird is a dumb location for short-turn, the short-turning trains will be nearly empty between Yonge and Laird, but operationally this is not a big problem.

Yes, these decisions are nonsensical with retrospect, but you are probably right that it is no death knell to the line.

 

[afransen]

I have a question regarding the elevated Alignment, what would they do once it reached the 427? would they go underground?

Why not over?

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think it would have to switch from elevated to underground before it reaches Martin Grove, and then run in a tunnel between Martin Grove and the Renforth terminal.

Still cheaper than tunneling through pretty much all of Etobicoke.

Guessing they don't want the noise of the light rail obscuring the "pleasant" truck, automobile, etc. traffic noises around 427/401. Adding another elevated section, just for light rail, would also "spoil" the view of the stop-n-go traffic. There is "no real estate" available for a overhead light rail section around the intersection.

From link.

 

[crs1026]

I forget where that gas main is buried, but it sure is a puzzle why the space under these overpasses can't be carved out to permit LRT. One certainly sees such widening under bridges along the 401 west of Hurontario. Just put the sidewalk and bike lanes outside of the pillars - there's room for 3 lanes wide between the pillars.

Maybe if the planners thought they were widening Eglinton to six auto lanes, they would suddenly remember how to do it?

- Paul

 

[Steve X]

Why not over?

In order for that to work, the station would have to be east of Martin Grove and have the line duck under the hydro corridor immediately west of the intersection. There will be many hard to access construction spots making this a pretty expensive, difficult to manage traffic and would be prone to delays cause they can't get construction workers/materials on site easily between in the middle of the highway easily. The tunnel is a much easier option. On top of that, this would add more congestion on an already congested area.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I argue no, because the Scarborough LRT could have been interlined with the Crosstown.

The Scarborough portion of the Crosstown just gives me a headache to think about the poor planning involved. The Ontario Line is now on the horizon with an interchange station at Don Mills and the line turns back half of trains at Laird, and I thought that was the worst of it. Now that a few more years have passed, we can see that essentially the entire Golden Mile is slated for redevelopment with some 60+ highrise towers altogether (). How did we think to make that part of the line surface transit with no guarantee of TSP at intersections?

The annoying part with Eg West is that it's not even that we are taking "lessons learned in Scarborough" and doing "things right this time around". The built form in Etobicoke would never allow for whats happening in Scarborough to occur there.

I don't disagree at all. I believe Rob was in support of that too. Oh well...

The good people of Eglinton West rightfully concluded if Scarborough deserved underground transit then so did Eglinton West too. The " lesson learned" from Scarborough is that if you complain enough you too will get underground transit. Essentially we should all brace for a whole new level of complaining and nothing actually getting built because it's too expensive in the future.

You can see it this way, but I don't remember seeing many complaints from the Etobicoke residents about the at-grade line.

I think two factors led to the Eg West tunnel plan. First, Doug wanted to give some transit goodie to every part of the city, and that's somewhat reasonable. Scarborough gets SSE, downtown gets OL, North York gets the Yonge extension. Doug needed something for the west end, and Eg West was the most obvious choice.

Secondly, Doug is allergic to at-grade rail transit anywhere, thus an at-grade extension was ruled out. Furthermore, Doug felt like giving some pork to his loyal constituents, and chose underground. Otherwise, Eg West could go elevated. Elevated is apparently good enough for Leslieville, Overlea, and Flemington Park, but not for Doug's own neck of woods.

There were complaints, not nearly as many as Scarborough. LRT would have survived at grade politically, probably because Etobicoke has a subway already. The issue is this will be empty for a lot of the day and no terminal at Kipling.

I would not be too worried about the Eglinton East operations though. The demand from those 60+ residential highrises will be very easily handled by the at-grade LRT. The subway-level demand never comes from any kind of local residential density; such demand is always generated by the feeder routes. Downtown is the only area of the city that can fill the subways with walk-in traffic, and even that is due to the very high employment density, not residential density.

Eglinton East is not a trunk route and will have very few feeders, therefore it will not surpass the light-rail capacity.

No contest that the overall Crosstown design will look odd, being a messy blend of competing design concepts. The original concept of tunneling the central section only and doing the rest at grade, certainly was sensible for keeping the cost down. But if we are tunneling the whole west side anyway, and the total cost will be >80% of the cost of a fully grade-separate line, then it would make more sense to build the whole line as grade-separated.

Furthermore, the designers of the original ECLRT put the Don Mills Stn underground to strengthen the eastern section and improve the connection to DRL, but then the actual OL/DRL station shifted to elevated resulting in a very long transfer. If the ECLRT planners knew that OL is going to be elevated at Eglinton, they would probably keep the ECLRT's Don Mills station at grade.

But despite all those oddities, the Crosstown will operate just fine. The eastern section will be a bit slower than it could be, but will not become overloaded. And in the west, should the demand exceed the expectations, the second branch serving the west and short-turning at Laird can be added. Laird is a dumb location for short-turn, the short-turning trains will be nearly empty between Yonge and Laird, but operationally this is not a big problem.

Fair points. The Don Mills transfer will be ugly.

 

[W. K. Lis]

In order for that to work, the station would have to be east of Martin Grove and have the line duck under the hydro corridor immediately west of the intersection. There will be many hard to access construction spots making this a pretty expensive, difficult to manage traffic and would be prone to delays cause they can't get construction workers/materials on site easily between in the middle of the highway easily. The tunnel is a much easier option. On top of that, this would add more congestion on an already congested area.

All that "congestion" caused by single-occupant automobiles.

 

[sixrings]

You can see it this way, but I don't remember seeing many complaints from the Etobicoke residents about the at-grade line.

I think two factors led to the Eg West tunnel plan. First, Doug wanted to give some transit goodie to every part of the city, and that's somewhat reasonable. Scarborough gets SSE, downtown gets OL, North York gets the Yonge extension. Doug needed something for the west end, and Eg West was the most obvious choice.

Secondly, Doug is allergic to at-grade rail transit anywhere, thus an at-grade extension was ruled out. Furthermore, Doug felt like giving some pork to his loyal constituents, and chose underground. Otherwise, Eg West could go elevated. Elevated is apparently good enough for Leslieville, Overlea, and Flemington Park, but not for Doug's own neck of woods.

Scarborough voted in a "subways, subways, subways " only mayor to cancel the lrt. The province voted in a "subways subways subways " premier into office who happens to live in Etobicoke. Don't act mad or shocked at the results

 

[99Messier]

I have a question regarding the elevated Alignment, what would they do once it reached the 427? would they go underground?

There are a few branches of Eglinton and 427 ramps to worry about. If some reconfiguration is done, you can elevate over Mimico Creek and then run through the north end spans of the 427 bridges, OR, If you leave the road network essentially as it is, you elevate over 427 (between the 2 Eglintons) as the interchange is only one level high there.

I think it would have to switch from elevated to underground before it reaches Martin Grove, and then run in a tunnel between Martin Grove and the Renforth terminal.

Still cheaper than tunneling through pretty much all of Etobicoke.

Not sure if you can thread an elevated line above Eglinton/Martin Grove and below the hydro line - I think it would be hard. Tunneling this 2km to Renforth really kills your cost savings - putting the least residential area underground. If you are going under Martin Grove, may as well just dig the remaining 3.2km portion as cut-and-cover.

Why not over?

The hydro lines are key. if you can get by them, going over 427 is no problem.

I forget where that gas main is buried, but it sure is a puzzle why the space under these overpasses can't be carved out to permit LRT. One certainly sees such widening under bridges along the 401 west of Hurontario. Just put the sidewalk and bike lanes outside of the pillars - there's room for 3 lanes wide between the pillars.

Maybe if the planners thought they were widening Eglinton to six auto lanes, they would suddenly remember how to do it?

- Paul

View attachment 274860View attachment 274861

The gas line was generally along the south side of Eglinton. past Martin Grove, it sort of followed the multi-use path and stays south of the Eglinton. I am not sure you can fit both directions of LRT through the north end spans, but closing the north sidewalk and putting one branch of LRT on either side of the bridge pier would work too.

 

[99Messier]

I argue no, because the Scarborough LRT could have been interlined with the Crosstown.

The Scarborough portion of the Crosstown just gives me a headache to think about the poor planning involved. The Ontario Line is now on the horizon with an interchange station at Don Mills and the line turns back half of trains at Laird, and I thought that was the worst of it. Now that a few more years have passed, we can see that essentially the entire Golden Mile is slated for redevelopment with some 60+ highrise towers altogether (). How did we think to make that part of the line surface transit with no guarantee of TSP at intersections?

The annoying part with Eg West is that it's not even that we are taking "lessons learned in Scarborough" and doing "things right this time around". The built form in Etobicoke would never allow for whats happening in Scarborough to occur there.

Of course its no. Here's an exercise for you. What are the costs of fully grade-separate LRT vs. what we were heading towards in 2018.

Fully Grade Separated.
EWLRT = $4.7B. (Renforth to Mount Dennis)
Eg-Xtown LRT = $7.2B. (Mount Dennis to STC).
SRT Ext. = $1.2B (STC to Malvern).
Total = $13.1B

2018.
EWLRT = $2.9B. (Renforth to Mount Dennis on-street).
Eg. LRT = $4.6B. (Mount Dennis to Brentcliffe then on-street to Kennedy).
SRT = $1.8B. (Kennedy to Malvern).
SSE = $5.5B.
Total = $14.8B.

So we would have paid $1.5B more to get slower transit that covers less area. Savings would have been even more if they didn't use LRT. Now they are just trying to somehow fix the errors they made previously - and of course its not cheap.

 

[11th]

All that "congestion" caused by single-occupant automobiles.

Unless the area becomes as dense (population and jobs) as downtown, people who live there will continue to drive; doesn't mean they won't touch transit ever, just that they will do both. Their daily lives aren't limited to a 2km radius.

 

[johntauren]

The hydro lines are key. if you can get by them, going over 427 is no problem.

Hydro lines cross Eglinton on either side of the 427, you have to take both in account, to thread a line below both sets, and over the 427.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Hydro lines cross Eglinton on either side of the 427, you have to take both in account, to thread a line below both sets, and over the 427.

The hydro towers can be raised up higher. And less expensive to do.

 

[99Messier]

Hydro lines cross Eglinton on either side of the 427, you have to take both in account, to thread a line below both sets, and over the 427.

The west is 500m from 427 and from Renforth. It's easy to dip down after 427 to near grade and elevate again for Renforth. If it's 15m above 427 and 8m above Renforth, this translates into grades of about 4% and 2%