Toronto Eglinton Line 5 Crosstown West Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

One of the biggest cost driver is the stations are so damn deep. A shallow station would take a couple years to build. There’s 8 stories deep Stations need a considerable amount of excavation, concrete and cranes to get the work done.
 
Please read the previous pages, the whole argument started because it wouldn't cost 2x the price. Most of the Crosstown's big price tag comes from the fact that we're building 90m long platforms in all of the underground stations. A 40m long Canada Line style train would have the same capacity as the crosstown, and because of the significantly smaller stations, the extra cost that would've come from elevating the eastern portion would've been counterbalanced by having significantly cheaper stations. If future capacity is a concern, you could design the tunnels in a way that has them stay straight so that expansions could be built in the future if necessary.
In only referring to Eglinton east of Don Mills. Referencing all elevated vs at grade required 2x the cost for what I would say is limited value.

I'd be surprised if shorter stations in the underground segment would make up the cost difference as building a station at all is likely where the majority of the cost is but I've been wrong before.
 
In only referring to Eglinton east of Don Mills. Referencing all elevated vs at grade required 2x the cost for what I would say is limited value.

I'd be surprised if shorter stations in the underground segment would make up the cost difference as building a station at all is likely where the majority of the cost is but I've been wrong before.

I'd be similarly surprised if it came out a wash, but between the smaller stations and actually elevating, we are a long way from talking the kind of order of magnitude cost escalation you would have from, say, going to something equivalent to the Sheppard line and entirely underground.

The SRTs impact on Toronto's perception of light metro has been really unfortunate.
 
I look at heavy rail requiring either high density or high transfer at each station. Light rail would require either medium density or medium transfer at each station. The spacing of the stations depends upon how much density or transfers will occur at each station, to make it worth while.
 
I look at heavy rail requiring either high density or high transfer at each station. Light rail would require either medium density or medium transfer at each station. The spacing of the stations depends upon how much density or transfers will occur at each station, to make it worth while.
You don't require high density/transfer volumes at every station. You can use heavy rail to connect dense nodes with some low density (and low transfer volume) in between. When choosing modes, what really matters is the PPHD, the reliability, and the speed. Eglinton - Yonge looked like this in the 1950s:
1648384780146.png
 
I'm not sure why people assume this line was meant for crosstown travel. I think the name "Crosstown" references the length of the line rather than it's intended primary usage.
Then we are insane for putting it in a tunnel for most of its length.

If we are going to spend this kind of money, it shoulds be real rapid transit, not a low floor monstrosity. Low floor is for when you want to skimp on stations. I'm fine with Finch LRT. We could have done the same on Eglinton and then one day built a real EW rapid transit line. Maybe if we one day get midtown GO this will be moot, otherwise this is a missed opportunity to connect MCC to STC through midtown and the airport and divert people from the 401.
 
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Then we are insane for putting it in a tunnel for most of its length.

If we are going to spend this kind of money, it shoulds be real rapid transit, not a low floor monstrosity. Low floor is for when you want to skimp on stations. I'm fine with Finch LRT. We could have done the same on Eglinton and then one day built a real EW rapid transit line. Maybe if we one day get midtown GO this will be moot, otherwise this is a missed opportunity to connect MCC to STC through midtown and the airport and divert people from the 401.

I don't think that was ever the goal of this project.

How many people would travel from STC to MCC?

How many people travel from Kipling to Kennedy on any sort of consistent basis?
 
Once the next round of transit is complete, ridership will be focused on the terminal stations and the stations intersecting with Line 1 and the Ontario Line.
 
I don't think that was ever the goal of this project.

How many people would travel from STC to MCC?

How many people travel from Kipling to Kennedy on any sort of consistent basis?
People don't use line 2 end to end because it is slow. There new plan seems to be to loop Ontario line up and over the 401 to Richmond Hill, the airport, and on to MCC maybe. Honestly would have been more logical to extend line 5 but the choice of technology makes it unreasonable. Lots of people would use a fast connection from MCC or STC to line 1 or Ontario Line or the airport.

We seem to be stubbornly refusing to build transit that creates network effects.
 
People don't use line 2 end to end because it is slow. There new plan seems to be to loop Ontario line up and over the 401 to Richmond Hill, the airport, and on to MCC maybe. Honestly would have been more logical to extend line 5 but the choice of technology makes it unreasonable. Lots of people would use a fast connection from MCC or STC to line 1 or Ontario Line or the airport.

We seem to be stubbornly refusing to build transit that creates network effects.
I worked at one time in Scarborough, lived in Etobicoke, using the subway to travel. Reading the newspaper or books to pass the time.

Now if there was a GO Midtown Train that would bypass downtown, which would be an express service in comparison...

go-midtown-map.png
From link.
 
I'm saying that the two types are uncomparable. What Marlborough Station represents is what LRT looks like when you prioritize getting around quickly. I'm sorry but Public Realm should NEVER be an absolute priority. Function over form any day of the week. Also I'm not arguing we should replicate Marlborough Station, I'm not even saying we should have the C-Train. My point of comparison of the C-Train is that that is LRT done right. My argument for Eglinton is that it shouldn't be LRT AT ALL - but a light metro.

Okay? And we could've had something even better for cheaper

You need it if you want EFFECTIVE TSP, and you want trains to run at efficient speeds.

Nobody is arguing that the status quo should've been maintained.

500m is WAY TOO LITTLE. They should be every km or so.


However the option to travel that distance should always be there. When we design a regional network, we shouldn't design it for "the biggest use case", we should design it with as many use cases in mind. We should design it to allow people to commute, but also to allow people to travel from one end to another as quickly as possible.

There will also likely be many people using it commute from Scarborough to say Pearson Airport. Maybe they need to visit someone who lives in Mississauga. The use cases you're arguing for makes it seem like you want to build transit for commuters. That's great and all, but that means that people still need cars to effectively do anything other than commuting.

And the reason for this is because Line 2 has extremely tight stop spacing - too tight. On average, there's a station every 600m on Line 2 which significantly increases end to end travel time. Eglinton on the other hand has a subway section with reasonable station spacing - around every km, and an extremely packed surface section. If the underground section of Line 5 had the same stop spacing as Line 2, the average speed would've been like 25km/h or even lower. This statistic doesn't reflect Line 5 well, as much as it poorly reflects on Line 2's design.


Don't forget though that Scarborough is MASSIVE, and trips within Scarborough are extremely large in their own right - with many trips and commutes exceeding 10km.

If you build the line as a fully grade separate light metro with smaller trains, you already get massive time saving on accounts that the train will arrive much more frequently. Being generous, let's say a train would arrive every 3 mins, that's a theoretical time save of 4 mins right off the bat.

If you're getting on at Warden, well we can do that math. Let's be generous and say we have somewhat functioning TSP and you spend an average of 10s per traffic light. We'll remove Hakimi-Lebovic and Aga Khan Stations because those stations are too close to other stations (and honestly have no reason to exist), and we'll remove 5s per station since High Floor trains typically result. We'll consider the average station dwell time at around 45s for the light metro, and 50s for LRT.

Excluding Warden I counted 9 surface crossings.

that's 10*9s + 8*5s + 2*45s, or 90s+40s+90s which gives us 220s of travel time improvement or 3m 40s, and this is generous. In reality, we won't have TSP that is this good, and a fully elevated Light Metro will have trains that operate at much higher speeds than the LRT, and of course this doesn't factor in how much time you will likely save not waiting for a train. Sure the station is on street level and quicker to access, but A) since you have to cross Eglinton, you are at the mercy of the current pedestrian crossing signal, which means you might have to wait up to a minute before you can cross the street (this is an aspect people seem to conveniently forget), and even if we assume that you can always cross Eglinton freely, climbing up to an elevated station only takes a minute max, so the time savings of easier access to stations isn't even that much to begin with. Not enough to compensate for everything else.

I apologize for not reading your responses properly before responding. The Calgary LRT was brought up as a comparison a few pages back and I simply assumed that the posters supporting it were advocating for that to be implemented here.

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that the Eglinton East portion is perfect, not by a long shot.
  • Not having transit signal priority is a major drawback of the eastern line. It will impact the frequency in the underground portion as well, which is extremely unfortunate.
  • $12 billion is just too much of a price tag for the line. That's $631 million per km. Granted the surface portion is going to be a much cheaper than the underground, but even still. But this is a gripe of general transit construction costs in Toronto just being exorbitant, not limited to just the Crosstown line.
So your point is to use Canada Line style stations, rolling stock, and elevating the eastern portion with the saved costs.
  • I personally don't know the cost breakdown to confidently state that reducing the station size from 90 m to 40 or 50m would provide us the cost savings to elevate 7.5 km of track. Back of the napkin calculations are fun, but the actualities of constructing a transit line in Toronto can only be provided by the program manager of the Crosstown line construction.
    • How much do the stations cost now, compared to if we shortened them to 50 m?
    • How much does it cost to elevate 7.5 km of track in the eastern portion?
  • Canada Line stations are 40-50 m with the rolling stock having a total capacity of 334 passengers per train. This would result in a pphpd maximum of 6,680 at trains every 3 minutes, or 13,360 every 1.5 minutes. Estimates for Eglinton are 6,000 maximum pphpd on the eastern section in 2031, which will only keep going up as the density and population in this area naturally increases. See the 50-60 new mixed-use (condo, retail, rental, and office) towers being proposed along the above-ground portion of the Crosstown. We might have to expand the stations sooner than you think.
LRT is not a be all end all perfect system for the Crosstown, but I feel neither is a light metro as you have described. We have no actual numbers on costs to do a fair comparison and say with confidence that cost saved on the stations can offset elevating the eastern portion. Built at the same style as the Canada Line, we risk reaching capacity much earlier than with the LRT, with a much more disruptive process to expand capacity than with the LRT. We can't have the trains running when you're digging out the tunnel to expand the stations. Do you shut down the line for 4 years while we expand the stations?

According to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT Forecasting Report, the average speed above ground is 25 km/h, compared to 32 km/h when underground. Fully grade separating and reducing the total number of stops to match the 1 km between station would make the above ground section the same 32 km/h. Do you know the time difference for that 7.5 km stretch? 18 minutes for at-grade LRT vs 14 minutes for grade separation. We're arguing for 4 minutes of savings over a line that will entirely take 35-40 minutes (19 km line until Black Creek Drive). We will not get 40 km/h speeds if the underground section is itself 32 km/h. The underground section fully matches your requirements. 1 km minimum between stations, ATC on the trains, full grade separation. Yet the speed is only 32 km/h. Maybe I'm missing something, please enlighten me if that is the case.

Values shown above about the Crosstown LRT ridership demand and average speeds are from this file:
Eglinton Crosstown LRT Demand Forecasting Report
 
One of the ways to counteract the "maxing out" of capacity on the Crosstown would be to build more perpendicular routes (or beef up existing routes) to lower the peak point ridership. In the west I think there won't be a capacity issue because you'll have the Kitchener Line hopefully up to RER frequencies by the time the Western extension opens, and then only 2 stops down the line the Barrie RER line, then a few stops after that the Spadina Line.

The eastern segment may have a bit of an issue, as it's quite a stretch between Kennedy and the future OL station at Don Mills. That also happens to be the lowest capacity part of the entire line. The stretch between Don Mills and Yonge should be fine too, and I'd expect there would be quite a few counter-flow trips from say Bayview going east to Don Mills instead of west to Yonge, just to avoid the Yonge Line.
 
People don't use line 2 end to end because it is slow. There new plan seems to be to loop Ontario line up and over the 401 to Richmond Hill, the airport, and on to MCC maybe. Honestly would have been more logical to extend line 5 but the choice of technology makes it unreasonable. Lots of people would use a fast connection from MCC or STC to line 1 or Ontario Line or the airport.

We seem to be stubbornly refusing to build transit that creates network effects.

That's the point of the Regional GO trains. Moving people between city centres fast. The subway and LRT network primarily supports the City of Toronto as it should.

MCC to Line 1 - Milton Go line to Union station
STC to Line 1 - Stouffville Go line from Kennedy to Union station
STC to Ontario Line - Eglinton Crosstown - No other option there
STC to Airport - Stouffville Go line to Union station and Union-Pearson Link to the airport
MCC to STC - Milton Go line to Union station, subway from there
MCC to Ontario Line - Milton GO to Union, subway to Queen
MCC to Airport - GO bus 40 from MCC to Pearson

Where is the source on the "lots of people"? Anecdotal information from a few personal situation is not a study or confirmation of demand. GO is being expanded in places where there is demand as it should be.
 
That's the point of the Regional GO trains. Moving people between city centres fast. The subway and LRT network primarily supports the City of Toronto as it should.

MCC to Line 1 - Milton Go line to Union station
STC to Line 1 - Stouffville Go line from Kennedy to Union station
STC to Ontario Line - Eglinton Crosstown - No other option there
STC to Airport - Stouffville Go line to Union station and Union-Pearson Link to the airport
MCC to STC - Milton Go line to Union station, subway from there
MCC to Ontario Line - Milton GO to Union, subway to Queen
MCC to Airport - GO bus 40 from MCC to Pearson

Where is the source on the "lots of people"? Anecdotal information from a few personal situation is not a study or confirmation of demand. GO is being expanded in places where there is demand as it should be.
This is a very outdated view of how Toronto's transit system should be viewed as. We shouldn't be constraining ourselves to these hard municipal borders when looking at how a regional network should be played out. While the local-regional dynamic works at a very high level - it is still much more valuable view to look at each corridor individually and see what's important there.

Travel to STC and MCC is important. These are going to be extremely important developmental nodes, and having a rapid link between the two would be extremely useful - especially if the goal is to reduce car dependancy.

Eglinton is a massive arterial, and end to end transit could be extremely valuable. Valuable enough for a go line? Probably not. Viable enough for 20k pphpd? Quite possibly. We should honestly forget that municipal borders exist when thinking about how to plan for a regional transit network.
 

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