W. K. Lis
Superstar
Both Egltinton LRT and Finch West LRT light rail vehicles will be compatible. Any components inside them should be interchangeable, plug-out and plug-in. Just like the drivers will be interchangeable, get off and get on.
Toronto Eglinton Line 5 Crosstown West Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
Steve X
Senior Member
Only if it’s that easy. The freedom itself is a streetcar. BBD listed that installing ATO equipment is one of the challenges as it has to be interfaced to the driving computer.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Link to the reference, please?
The Flexity Outlook is a streetcar to be used in Toronto's legacy streetcar network.
The Flexity Freedom is a light rail vehicle to be used to Ontario's light rapid transit lines. It is too wide to be used in Toronto's downtown mixed traffic.
(Did you know that in Chicago, they converted their old PCC streetcars and used on their "L" lines.)
The old Gloucester train horns were installed on the CLRV streetcars, showing how interchangeable the components can be.
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Rainforest
Senior Member
First of all, the P3 contracts aren't signed for eternity. They are probably for 15, 20, maybe 30 years, then up for renewal. At the renewal time, the customer - Metrolinx or whichever agency inherits its functions - can easily add a clause for partial interoperability, and the vendor would be foolish to reject it and lose the contract.
Secondly, there is a good reason to interoperate the Eglinton and Jane lines, if Jane is built as a branch of Eglinton that runs from just north of Eglinton to Steeles. The density along Jane between Bloor and Eglinton is lower, and can be served by buses. At the same time, the street is very narrow south of Dundas, and tunneling would be the only practical way to get LRT running there.
In some ways, a continuous Jane LRT from Steeles to Bloor makes for a better network, but if having that LRT north of Eglinton only is a lot cheaper and easier to swallow, then it should be accepted.
Eglinton and Finch won't interoperate fully, but the short section leading to the Pearson terminals might be shared. It would be silly to install 4 tracks instead of 2 for those last 2 km, just because the control systems are incompatible. Should be noted that the Pearson section isn't signed off for either Eglinton or Finch at this time. So if MX isn't silly, they will include the interoperability clause if/when they contract out the Pearson section.
Finch and Jane: first of all, they can be very conveniently served from the same MFS. The Finch MSF is literally next to Jane. Furthermore, the segment of Jane between Finch and Steeles may be used for emergency diversions of the Finch service, if a blockage occurs on Finch between Jane and Keele. In that bsituation, the Finch LRT riders will be able to get to the subway at Pioneer Village instead of Finch West.
ARG1
Senior Member
I feel like at this point any attempt branch off of the Eglinton Line won't really end up working out well, especially on the west end. The Eglinton West Subway is a project that carries a lot of weight on its shoulders. Not only will it be a major way for people from Etobicoke and Mississauga to get to Pearson Airport, but it will connect to a major transitway going to Mississauga (and that will eventually have a downtown subway under S1), and the entire corridor is planned to have a ton of density as part of the TOC initiative done by the province. Finally this is going to be the primary route linking Mississauga and Midtown Toronto. Some time ago, Reece Martin had an interview with Phil Verster, and during that interview Phil something very interesting, where he talked about the need to be commercially astute with transit projects, and seeing where to cut out the fat. Now a direct example he gave was the cancelling of the Scarborough Junction project and the realignment of the LSE corridor tracks, but he also brought up the lack of needing to build the Missing Link, and that Milton RER could be provided via other more fiscally conservative means. The way I personally interpreted this is that in some ways it seems like Metrolinx is seemingly looking at Eglinton West as a replacement for Milton RER, on top of all of its other responsibilities.
Now what is my point with all of this? In short, I really don't see a scenerio in which the Jane LRT interoperating with Eglinton ever happens. Eglinton is already going to suffer from serious capacity limitations due to the vehicle types, and has a limit to how frequently trains can arrive due to the existence of the at grade segment in Scarborough so its unlikely we're going to see trains arriving at headways sooner than every 4 mins. Maybe if Sunnybrooke Park gets some extremely strong signal priority or gets grade separated, we can have the core section of the Eglinton Line between Jane and Don Mills running at every 2 minutes, which would leave Jane and Eglinton West at 4 minute headways, but even then I'm not sure if this is enough to handle the demand for Eglinton West in 30 years time. In short, if we choose to build Jane as an LRT, I highly doubt we have any room to squeeze the trains onto Eglinton. Best case scenerio we might see Jane parallel the Eglinton Line until Mt. Dennis, either on Eglinton or along the Kitchener Line corridor with the line connecting to the Mt. Dennis MSF, and maybe we can install a connecting track between the two in case we need to move trains around for various operational needs, however this is by no means anywhere reaching a necessity, and at best you're redoing the signaling on a Line just in the off chance you need to move a train around.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
If another Ontario party, after the (Progressive) Conservatives), come in, hopefully they will implement a GO/UPX/TTC discount fare system. If so, expect to see increases in the use of UPX and GO at the Weston, Mt. Dennis, and Bloor Stations, from transfers from the TTC. If one needs to get downtown (baseball, hockey, etc.), they would offer a faster more express service than the Eglinton Crosswtown, in the west end of Toronto. Ditto for the other GO Transit train routes within Toronto.
If people could afford to use taxis or ride-sharing, they can afford to use a GO/UPX/TTC discount fare.
If people could afford to use taxis or ride-sharing, they can afford to use a GO/UPX/TTC discount fare.
Rainforest
Senior Member
To some degree, yes, but then with the increased GO demand we might hit the capacity limits.
Hopefully, GO can add enough capacity on the segment between Union and Bramalea station, where the tracks are fully owned by Metrolinx.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Indeed, the demand for Eglinton West originating from Mississauga is a big wild card.
The scale of that demand is hard to predict, because the pattern is virtually nonexistent today. There is no usable transit connection between Mississauga and Toronto Midtown. Only people in really desperate circumstances would consider using the Eg West or Lawrence West buses for that purpose. Everyone else either drives or chooses their residence or employment to avoid such a commute altogether.
Once EWLRT connects to Mississauga Transitway at Renforth, a somewhat decent transit option for such trips will be created, and surely some people will use it. But how many, remains to be seen. This is still not a perfect option, with a transfer at Renforth and potentially two more transfers to/from local routes in the beginning and at the end of the trip.
With that in mind, I can think of Jane LRT being a branch of Eglinton temporarily, before the Eglinton West demand reaches its full level. And later, Jane LRT gets de-branched from Eglinton and extended to Bloor instead.
Fritter
Active Member
That actually describes GO's current reserved parking program, at least pre Covid.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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I agree. It won't interoperate at all. At best Jane will go to Bloor.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Still needs to The Queensway (501 streetcar) and the proposed Park Lawn GO Station.
Helps in providing alternate routes in case of problems with Line 2 Bloor-Danforth or Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown LRT or even Line 6 Finch West LRT or Line 1 Spadina.
ARG1
Senior Member
Even then I feel like the prospects of extending the Jane LRT south to Bloor is sort of self defeating. You're going to need to tunnel the entire section, and you're going to pay the full cost of tunneling in a low demand area, while not receiving any of the benefits that come from tunneling the line. If we were to build a north south LRT line somewhere in Etobicoke, we should probably just build it on Kipling, and maybe have a Canada Line style line along Jane with extremely short platforms, tunneled south of Lawrence and Elevated North of that. It won't be able to directly integrate to any of the other LRT lines, but it would do far better from a value proposition considering the geography and how much tunneling would inevitably be required. Heck if you want, you can make it as part of the western extension of the Ontario Line.
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Streety McCarface
Senior Member
If Kipling-Islington is anything to go by, 40K PPD? Not terrible when you think about it. MiWay and Brampton Transit are getting better as time goes on, fare integration is inevitable, and development along the corridor is accelerating...a lot.
Honestly, when you actually think about how fast this trip may be, consider a trip from Square one to Dundas:
As is:
A. Via Eglinton
MiWay Express Bus to Renforth: 15 min
Line 5 to Eglinton-Yonge: 30 minutes (16 stations, similar to line 2, even though I think dwell times will play a role here)
Line 1 to Dundas: 10 mins
Altogether a 55 minute journey, round up to 1 hr for transfers.
B. Via GO:
You're SOL...to the point in which you're better off taking a GO Bus (which has huge risks due to the Gardiner). For the purposes of having a look though:
MiWay to Cooksville or Erindale: 10-15 min
Milton Line 35 minutes
Line 1: 5 minutes
Again, 55 minutes, round up to 1 hr.
So you're not actually saving any time using GO. Worse yet, you're transferring the same number of times, and adding risk to your trip since you're using regular city streets, and less frequent services.
As a mental exercise, Throw in 10K for the airport connection, and 60K as originally proposed, and conservatively, you're adding 100K people to the western segment of the crosstown (subtracted 10K from the estimate to account for the Eglinton West Bus connection at Mt Dennis). Considering the western segment of Line 2 sees about 250K users per day, and assuming the western segment of the Crosstown will see 100K passengers per day, you're looking close to line 2 capacities on the Crosstown west of the Allen, on trains that can carry 1/3 the number of people.
superelevation
Active Member
Sounds like the exact type of thing that would go horribly wrong in Toronto
Rainforest
Senior Member
I feel those numbers are too high, how can the west end of Line 2 handle 250K users per day? That would be 250K / 2 = 125K during the morning rush, or 125 / 3 = 42K per hour per direction. Line 2 doesn't even have that much capacity. Maybe, that's 250K users per day on the whole Line 2, split approximately in half between the west end and east end?
But either way, Line 5 built to the subway speed standard, and having a major feeder connection at Renforth, migh surprise on the upside .. and then we might regret the choosen vehicle and platform size.
Should have adhered fully to a single design paradigm. Either Transit City with minimal tunneling and surface running wherever possible, then the LRT train size would be sufficient. Or a subway / light metro style, then the trains need to be larger.
We are getting a hybrid, the Golden Mile section and the train size from Transit City, the west end from the light metro concept. That inconcistency might cause some grief.
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