BurlOak
Senior Member
I second that Thank You.
If the TTC is to operate the line, it makes sense to ask them why they do not demand a more useful thing to operate.
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I second that Thank You.
If the TTC is to operate the line, it makes sense to ask them why they do not demand a more useful thing to operate.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Well do keep in mind that activism work both ways - for or against. It's not necessarily in one's favour.
AoD
AoD
Ozman
Active Member
Ok. Brief synopsis: In Dec. 2012, Metrolinx announced that they were looking at amending the Environmental Assessment that was approved in 2010, with regard to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT alignment between Laird and Don Mills stations. They proposed moving the eastern portal from just east of Brentcliffe Rd. to just east of Don Mills Rd. in order to move the tunnel boring launch shaft to Don Mills. There were issues with the site at Brentcliffe (slope stability, proximity to condos., soil contamination) and using the parking lot of the Science Centre made more sense. Also this would lessen the construction impact on traffic and the surrounding neighbourhoods. This change would mean the tunnel would go all the way to Don Mills and thus the line would be completely grade separated to that point, allowing for ATC to, and short turns at, Don Mills, a major hub.
I thought this was a big improvement form the centre of the road alignment that was originally planned which would make a mess of the Leslie/Eglinton intersection and force the short turns to occur at Laird (the last station in the tunnel.)
A small but vocal group of condo dwellers on Leslie about half a kilometre north of Eglinton protested because by putting the line underground the Leslie (surface) stop was eliminated and Metrolinx said the small projected ridership at Leslie did not warrant spending $80 million to build a full underground station there. In the face of opposition and also supposedly wanting to avoid having to get an amended EA through the circus that is Toronto City Council, Metrolinx abruptly dropped the whole plan and went back to the original EA. After 5 months, two different proposed amendments and 3 public meetings we're back to where we were last year. With an approved but flawed EA that could be fixed if Metrolinx would just look at different ideas instead of all or nothing. (i.e. tunnel all the way to Don Mills or go back to the centre median mess at Leslie that's in the original EA).
That's it in a nutshell. See the Crosstown website for details.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The hostility towards the idea of bringing up the elevation issue at the TTC meeting amazes me.
Sure, this isn't the ideal situation. In a perfect world, Solid Snake would be brining this up at a Metrolinx meeting. But there aren't any Metrolinx meetings so he's doing the next best thing and brining it to a TTC meeting.
Now all we can hope for is that the TTC will attempt to persuade Metrolinx to change the grade of the eastern portion (which is unlikely), or that any media at the event will publicize the concerns on the news (somewhat likely) and get the attention of politicians.
And if nothing else comes out of the event, at least Snake will have educated attendees about the options available for the Crosstown. That is more than 90% of us here have ever done.
I can't speak for other members, but you certainly have my gratitude Solid Snake. Perhaps if more of us followed his example, we could help to make transit in this city better.
Sure, this isn't the ideal situation. In a perfect world, Solid Snake would be brining this up at a Metrolinx meeting. But there aren't any Metrolinx meetings so he's doing the next best thing and brining it to a TTC meeting.
Now all we can hope for is that the TTC will attempt to persuade Metrolinx to change the grade of the eastern portion (which is unlikely), or that any media at the event will publicize the concerns on the news (somewhat likely) and get the attention of politicians.
And if nothing else comes out of the event, at least Snake will have educated attendees about the options available for the Crosstown. That is more than 90% of us here have ever done.
I can't speak for other members, but you certainly have my gratitude Solid Snake. Perhaps if more of us followed his example, we could help to make transit in this city better.
Voltz
Senior Member
This document here says the average speed of the east section will be 22-25km per hour. (pg12)
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/proj...n_lrt/pdf/2009-11-20_display_panels_part1.pdf
The distance of that section is only 5-6km depending on what you include,
At best that is a savings of 5 minutes with an elevated line, and as little as 2.5 minutes for the entire eastern section. For many passengers the time savings could easily be wiped out by the extra time it takes to reach the platform. And some passengers will have their stop eliminated and have to walk to the next one.
With the time savings being so little it would be difficult to justify the added expense.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
I was looking at the Leslie area on Google Maps, and a silly (?) idea came into my head. I copied and pasted the whole area into Paint, then crudely copied and pasted the Celestica interchange at the Leslie intersection. Oddly enough, it fits. Then the only other infrastructure you'd need would be a crosswalk signal (as at Wynford) across the eastbound lanes. I suppose it would cost a lot to build, though.
There are a number of other possibilities for this intersection Metrolinx could explore, but maybe time is running out. They eventually came up with the right solution for Mount Dennis.
There are a number of other possibilities for this intersection Metrolinx could explore, but maybe time is running out. They eventually came up with the right solution for Mount Dennis.
snowystar
New Member
Improve the reliability of the system through grade separation and automation can save much more time than whatever stated from the "average speed". If the train is automated, then the timing of the trains are very predictable. It is almost guaranteed to have a train at a specific location at a specific time.. well, unless TTC screw up again. If you are riding the train for an important appointment or job that you have to arrive on time, you do not care about the "average travel time" - you only care about the "maximum travel time", or at least, the 95th-98th percentile so that you will not be late unless you're very unlucky.
When I was commuting on SkyTrain in Vancouver for a year, I had to transfer from the train to a *hourly* bus route. But I know the automated train is very reliable, so I am able to set up my connection as tight as possible - 1 minute to enter the station and board the train, and 1.5 minute for the connection to the hourly bus route. So the total wait and connection time is only 2.5 minutes. I do this trip almost every weekday for almost a year, and I only missed the connection for a grand total of 3 times. Now, if the system is somewhat less reliable, how much time should I add for the wait transfer so I won't get home one hour late everyday? If I have to add 7.5 minutes for the wait of train and possible gap between trains, and another 7.5 minutes from the possible delay in the trip, then the saving from grade separation and automation is not just 5 minutes, it is 20 minutes.
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Voltz
Senior Member
But how many people would actually cut their trip that close? You are really stretching the benefits to the extreme, and still have not justified the extra cost.
nfitz
Superstar
I will be a lot, lot, cheaper to operate a surface line than an elevated line.
I don't think it's hostility. It's simply that your talking to the wrong people. You'll ask your question, and you'll get shut down in a 5-second response, that it's not the right forum for this. If the moderator is on their toes, they'll simply stop you before you've finished your question, and not allow a response.
And then, consider how expensive an elevated structure will be. Subway is about $40 million a kilometre for the tunnel. How much is that kind of structure going to cost per kilometre.
And then there's the maintenance costs for an elevated structure.
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Solid Snake
Active Member
Some people are just in love with streetcars... Heck, I would prefer subways but I think an elevated LRT on Eglinton makes more sense.
Yes, let's just pay taxes to the province and see no improvement in transit besides the DRL and a subway to Richmond Hill...
Some people...
CDL.TO
Moderator
My commute home used to involve connecting to a TTC route that ran every 20 minutes in the evening and I would cut it that close. The subway is very reliable.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
That document is almost 4 years old. The more recent one is probably more accurate
Depends on the cost. If it's less than $450 Million, I may be willing to support it. Over $500 Million is too much.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
A 4 week old document is old for this project.
snowystar
New Member
It is quite normal among regular riders with long commute. Most would know the absolute last train they need to get on in order to make their connection. At least I saw many of the same people on the same train everyday...
I think most people, like me, would take earlier trains at first. But if you can actually see a later train coming in everyday while you are waiting for the bus, and people on that train ends up taking the same bus as you, eventually everyone would elect to take the later train to save a few minute on commute time. Its just a common behavior, not stretching by any mean...
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
Why not exercise your democratic rights to Metrolinx? You know, the agency in charge of the project? The TTC is not in charge of the project! Talk to Metrolinx, not the TTC.