Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Markster]

I'm curious though, how easy would it be to expand capacity on the line? Beyond coupling more vehicles together, which would likely be pretty easy. Would it be possible to eventually convert it so that the new subway cars could be run through it? Are allowances being made for that?

The Toronto Rocket will never run through these tunnels, for the simple fact that they won't need that kind of capacity for the entire lifetime of the TR trains.
Don't expect Eglinton to ever be converted to a 3rd rail system.

There are so many ways to increase capacity on the line that it doesn't need to be "convertable".
They'll be able to:
1) Lengthen the stations to the currently designed maximum length. (I think the plan is 60m for now with 30m unfinished expansion space?)
2) Increase to 90 second frequency with ATC
3) Purchase Toronto Rocket-style single cabin trains

Once they've maxed all of those out it makes more sense to bite the bullet and lengthen platforms than to rebuild them to allow a high floor vehicle which would require scrapping the entire fleet.

 

[Standard]

One other thing to consider is if they decided to upgrade the whole line to run current subway cars, the stations would probably have to be redesigned into the large station structures we have now being built on the Vaughan extension. This is to satisfy emergency evacuation requirements if two train loads of subways have to evacuate in a station.

This would significantly increase the station construction costs and probably other related emergency infrastructure costs. This would then defeat the whole purpose of going LRT, keeping construction costs low and cheaper than a subway. The fact that we are now burrowing the whole line has sort of made that purpose moot now, but should still be considered.

 

[wopchop]

There are so many ways to increase capacity on the line that it doesn't need to be "convertable".
They'll be able to:
1) Lengthen the stations to the currently designed maximum length. (I think the plan is 60m for now with 30m unfinished expansion space?)
2) Increase to 90 second frequency with ATC
3) Purchase Toronto Rocket-style single cabin trains.

Thanks for the reply. These were the kind of answers I was looking for (although the transit nerd in me is crying that we aren't getting third rail). Good to hear that they're planning on leaving some space to lengthen the platforms.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And before it's built, let us not forget express capabilities, even if it's just sidetracks at all stations with just the regular 2 tracks in between.

 

[nfitz]

And before it's built, let us not forget express capabilities, even if it's just sidetracks at all stations with just the regular 2 tracks in between.

The design is long-since finished for the central section. There's no plans for anything like this. It would add significantly to the costs.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

I still don't understand why the city went with LRT as opposed to a subway.
Is it that the current SRT will be easier to transfer over to an LRT route? BTW, how long do they expect the SRT to be down while they transfer the track over to LRT?

The current SRT is impossible to convert to an HRT route. You'd have to build an entirely new tunnel.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The design is long-since finished for the central section. There's no plans for anything like this. It would add significantly to the costs.

That's too bad, particularly with the flexibility of multiple express routes and bypassing trains stuck at any one station.

 

[Still Waters]

For all intents and purposes, underground LRT is subway. It's fast, good capacity, and underground. Some here may not share his view, but nonetheless in terms of his desire for an Eglinton subway, this is a huge win for him.

Let's remember that an Eglinton line, LRT or subway, was not in Mr. Ford's initial plan. His campaign plan was to use the Phase 1 Transit City money ($8 billion for ECLRT, SRT+extension, SELRT and Finch LRT) to build the Sheppard Subway and extend the Danforth Subway to connect to Sheppard at Scarborough Centre in a continuous loop. This is no big win for him at all, it's just being spun that way. He got virtually nothing that he wanted, which is why the deal between him and Metrolinx took so long to be announced. Metrolinx refused to give up on the Eglinton line -- their only concession was to put the entire Phase 1 underground. There is no committed funding for Sheppard and no Danforth Subway extension. Finch was the political sacrifice on both sides because there is no cohesive group(s) in that corridor to complain.

 

[Still Waters]

The design is long-since finished for the central section. There's no plans for anything like this. It would add significantly to the costs.

Not only that, it is virtually impossible to build a wider tunnel in the central Eglinton section, without going below all the building foundations. As it is, there is only about 1.5m difference between the the available ROW width and the tunnel width.

 

[Eug]

Let's remember that an Eglinton line, LRT or subway, was not in Mr. Ford's initial plan. His campaign plan was to use the Phase 1 Transit City money ($8 billion for ECLRT, SRT+extension, SELRT and Finch LRT) to build the Sheppard Subway and extend the Danforth Subway to connect to Sheppard at Scarborough Centre in a continuous loop. This is no big win for him at all, it's just being spun that way. He got virtually nothing that he wanted, which is why the deal between him and Metrolinx took so long to be announced. Metrolinx refused to give up on the Eglinton line -- their only concession was to put the entire Phase 1 underground. There is no committed funding for Sheppard and no Danforth Subway extension. Finch was the political sacrifice on both sides because there is no cohesive group(s) in that corridor to complain.

This isn't his first choice but it still represents a huge win for him. In the first months of his reign he has "created" an instant fully grade separated "subway", complete with full provincial blessing. No matter how some naysayers would like to spin that, it's an enormous win for the Ford team AND for Metrolinx. It's even a win for McGuinty's government.

In fact, I would say that this gets him more positive PR than his pet project Sheppard would have gotten him. At the very worst, he's not suffering for it, given his 70% approval rating so far.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Not only that, it is virtually impossible to build a wider tunnel in the central Eglinton section, without going below all the building foundations. As it is, there is only about 1.5m difference between the the available ROW width and the tunnel width.

What about just at the stations at intersections so trains can pass other trains only at the stations though...

 

[Asterix]

What about just at the stations at intersections so trains can pass other trains only at the stations though...

What stations can you identify where their intersections are 150m+ wide (to enable a tunnel width for your double tracks to include the transition to double tracking plus the double track through the 90m station)?

Have you ever been on the subway when it pulls in or leaves a terminal and has to switch tracks? Ever notice how much they have to slow down in order to do so? What effect do you think that would have on the benefit gained by your station double tracking?

 

[lafard]

This sort of discussion is very quickly becoming a matter of making one line everything to everyone.

Is an express train across Eglinton - which is predominantly a local line - really the best way to serve crosstown demand? In a way it reflects the discussion of Sheppard/Finch in that the subway proposals view it as mostly a crosstown corridor while the LRT proposals view it as a local corridor.

This demand exists, but are these hideously expensive subway proposals really the best way to serve them considering their relatively small numbers?

You're better off spending the money on some sort of express bus service on the 401 and leaving the local lines, local.

 

[Northern Magus]

If people want an express train service, they might as well back the most realistic possibility for this: the midtown CP line.

 

[M II A II R II K]

To solve the Finch problem in the hydro corridor they can also add an Uptown CP Line as well.