Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[TheTigerMaster]

And we will get the speed and cost and like St Clair? TTC managed the community interest really well! No thank you.

1. St Clair's project scope, and cost, was expanded by Council. St Clair's budget overruns have been wildly exaggerated
2. My only interest is seeing Crosstown extensions completed in a timely manner, and somewhere near budget. Preliminary schedules thus far have been unacceptable. We can't wait til 2021 to see this enter construction, or it will be canceled. Whoever can get this thing safely built in the fastest amount of time should build it. And it needs to enter construction soon.

 

[Tuck]

1. St Clair's project scope, and cost, was expanded by Council. St Clair's budget overruns have been wildly exaggerated
2. My only interest is seeing Crosstown extensions completed in a timely manner, and somewhere near budget. Preliminary schedules thus far have been unacceptable. We can't wait til 2021 to see this enter construction, or it will be canceled. Whoever can get this thing safely built in the fastest amount of time should build it. And it needs to enter construction soon.

Well, to be fair we are talking about a city that likes cancelling projects after they've already started being built. So shovels in the ground might not even be enough to save the ECT E/W if someone sets their heart to cancelling it.

Granted, I don't actually thing that would happen as it seems like council is on board (And these days there'd probably be a huge outroar for cancelling a needed transit route), but we've seen flip flops before.

 

[Palma]

That's just wrong, removing most of those stops would result in stop spacing of nearly a kilometre or more in most cases, just way to long and with little overall benefit.

And it's been mentioned before why moving the stop at UTSC is not necessary.

but again who will walk 1 km from 1 stop to the other? If you live at midway point of 2 LRT stops 1 kM apart, you are 500 metres away from either stop and can choose which to go to, either east or west. If you are east of that 500 meres obviously the closet stop is the next LRT stop going east and if you are west of the 500 metre you walk west. 500 meter walk is doable. If one lives closer to 1 LRT stop why would that person walk 1 KLM away to the next. Makes no sense. I think people forget to think logically

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well, to be fair we are talking about a city that likes cancelling projects after they've already started being built. So shovels in the ground might not even be enough to save the ECT E/W if someone sets their heart to cancelling it.

Granted, I don't actually thing that would happen as it seems like council is on board (And these days there'd probably be a huge outroar for cancelling a needed transit route), but we've seen flip flops before.

It being under construction makes cancelation 10x more difficult. The goal of Mihevic's motion seems to be to have Crosstown East and West under construction before the next election in 2018. Based on prior TTC schedules, this should be achievable.

For Crosstown West, it's TPAP (expedited EA for transit projects) should take less than 6 months, because it'll be an amendment of the old TPAP done back in the 2000s (full TPAPs take approx. 6 months to complete). That means that upon receiving Council approval in June, its TPAP can be done before the end of 2016. Concurrently, design work necessary for initial tender can begin. Not all design work needs to be complete before initiating tender. Based on other the Scarborough Subway project, the design + tender phase can be done in 1.5 years, and from that point shovels can immediately go in the ground, sometime in early to mid 2018, with completion in 2020 (assuming it takes 2 years to build the surface section, as is planned with the current surface section).

Crosstown East would be a little more complicated, since it hasn't had any geotechnical or TPAP done. For the Scarborough Subway it'll take 1 year 11 months to start geotech work, complete the TPAP, tender and start construction. I don't think Crosstown East would take any longer than that, since it is a simpler project. So we'd be looking at a construction start date between mid and late 2018, and completion in 2020/2021. The Chief Planner does note that time does need to be dedicated to redesigning Kennedy interchange to accommodate Crosstown East. But if our goal is to start construction as soon as possible, there is no reason why we can't start construction on the surface section east of Kennedy, while waiting for the design of the Kennedy interchange to be complete. Even the central portion of the Crosstown was well into construction before the stations were designed. Also mind that Kennedy Station has always been designed with Malvern LRT in mind, so it's not as if we're designing the interchange from scratch.

Any claims that this thing can't possible enter construction until the 2020s smells like hogwash to me. I look forward to seeing the schedule the TTC proposes.

 

[WislaHD]

but again who will walk 1 km from 1 stop to the other? If you live at midway point of 2 LRT stops 1 kM apart, you are 500 metres away from either stop and can choose which to go to, either east or west. If you are east of that 500 meres obviously the closet stop is the next LRT stop going east and if you are west of the 500 metre you walk west. 500 meter walk is doable. If one lives closer to 1 LRT stop why would that person walk 1 KLM away to the next. Makes no sense. I think people forget to think logically

People don't tend to live exactly midpoint between stops along Crosstown East/West. They live in the neighbourhood adjacent, to the north and south sides of Eglinton. It might be 500 metres alone to get just to Eglinton from their house. If their 'entrance' spot on Eglinton is midway between two stops, then they must walk another 500m towards the stop. You are in fact asking them to walk 1km when you are proposing to remove stops.

Example here - If someone lived on Princess Margaret and Bemersyde, instead of walking 500 metres to their stop, you would have them walk 1km to either Islington or Kipling.

Aside from costs, you aren't gaining much from cutting the stop. It is not like having stops every 500-600 metres instead of 1km would prevent the LRT from achieving fast speeds.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The stop spacing makes sense once people understand that wider spacing does not cause faster travel times.

This was modelled years ago. Increasing the LRT stop spacing caused usage of individual stations to increase (relative to the closer spacing), consequently increasing dwell times at each station. The result was overall travel times more or less identical to the closer spaced options. Thus our current stop spacing has been optimized to maximize ridership, understanding that the LRT will move at the same speed regardless of number of stops.

That said, speed really isn't an issue with the Crosstown. The western extension is projected to move as fast, or slightly faster than Line 2. The eastern section will be moving moderately slower than Line 2. The Crosstown as a whole will travel at speeds comparable to Line 2.

 

[Adjei]

TTC Board wants Crosstown East + West done by 2021. Metrolinx apparently can't get it done until something ridiculous like 2026. TTC Board consequently wants TTC to take over the project to expedite its progress. TTC CEO is actually quite reluctant to take over this project, but he admits that the TTC does have a ton of in house experience managing similar projects, and will ask his staff to put together a schedule for the extensions.

It also should be noted that Metrolinx doesnt have the greatest track record managing the Crosstown project. Metrolinx is already two years behind schedule, which is something that the TTC warned would happen back in 2012.

Whoever can get it done faster should be selected.

You mean the same TTC who have messed up the Spadina extension and caused it to be years behind, hundreds of millions over budget, and caused an outside company to come and manage the project because they couldn't? That same TTC...

 

[drum118]

Regardless if TTC or Metrolinx is looking after building these extensions, they need to be P3 projects.

I don't trust TTC or Metrolinx these days of not screwing up projects based on current track records.

There is a need to review the west extension since various changes have taken place along the route. Prefer to see the ROW off to one side with flyover at major cross roads with the north side being the best option for elevated the ROW.

The east requires a complete EA and that is cutting it fine to have the line in operation by 2021. You would be lucky to see an EA late fall this year, but more like early 2017. Tender would have to go out in 2017 to have construction start in 2018. Unless work work takes 7/24 for building this extension, late 2021, more like mid 2022 would be opening date for it. You could open it in phases to speed things up for a 2021 date.

The big issue is how to get Metrolinx and the province to bring forth these extension sooner than later as it will effect the cash flow for other projects.

Then, Metrolinx is supposed to bring forth their 5 year Master Transit Plan (Big Move) review plan this year to show what projects should move up the list or down it as well adding to it. This review still has to go to the public for input and don't expect to see it until the fall. Base on the final approval, it will go into the 2017 budget for funding.

The other issues for a 2021 opening date for both extension, will Metrolinx be able to obtain more cars from Bombardier to cover the these extensions needs or will they have to cut the quality of service for the centre section to service the extension until the all the cars are here?? You will have an order of about 200-250 cars to service this line and given Bombardier current track record for TTC 204, let alone the extra 60 cars TTC wants, plus the Edmonton order, how many cars will be here come 2020 or 6 months before the line opens??

 

[cplchanb]

The other issues for a 2021 opening date for both extension, will Metrolinx be able to obtain more cars from Bombardier to cover the these extensions needs or will they have to cut the quality of service for the centre section to service the extension until the all the cars are here?? You will have an order of about 200-250 cars to service this line and given Bombardier current track record for TTC 204, let alone the extra 60 cars TTC wants, plus the Edmonton order, how many cars will be here come 2020 or 6 months before the line opens??

I dont think its set in stone that the next order of cars will go to Bdr. Since their royal cockup there has been much animosity between them and TTC and I think Metrolinx would be concerned as well, especially if their initial batch for Ion doesnt come in time. I wouldnt be surprised if this add on comes from Alstom or Seimens since they are most eager to step in

 

[crs1026]

The stop spacing makes sense once people understand that wider spacing does not cause faster travel times.

This was modelled years ago. Increasing the LRT stop spacing caused usage of individual stations to increase (relative to the closer spacing), consequently increasing dwell times at each station. The result was overall travel times more or less identical to the closer spaced options.

We are assuming that ECLRT will follow a subway-like operating paradigm where trams start promptly, accelerate quickly to full track speed, decelerate smartly, make quick platform stops, and carry on. Each stop adds a small amount of decelerate/dwell/accelerate delay. But the difference between 1 km spacing and 800m spacing doesn't cause much cumulative delay. In theory.

I can buy this, sort of, until I look at 501 on the Queensway and ask myself, what could go wrong.

One can't debate stop spacing without factoring in intersections, traffic control, schedule, track profile and condition, and headways.

To be on the safe side, I would argue for restricting stops. One can always add later.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

I dont think its set in stone that the next order of cars will go to Bdr. Since their royal cockup there has been much animosity between them and TTC and I think Metrolinx would be concerned as well, especially if their initial batch for Ion doesnt come in time. I wouldnt be surprised if this add on comes from Alstom or Seimens since they are most eager to step in

Until the power to be at both levels of Government is willing to fund someone else than Bombardier, Metrolinx and TTC are stuck with them.

More telling what will happen in 2017 with TTC current order is the 60th car. Unless all current and future cars up to 60th comply with failure requirement of 35,000 km, not the current 12-15,000, time to look elsewhere. If the failure rate is still to high and late delivery, then you may see a request to re-tender all orders and accept a delay of 2 years or so. We may know this by September before the 60th car due in Feb 2017 based on current delivery schedule.

You will have at least 5 new bidders for TTC and Metrolinx order.

In fact, TTC and City of Toronto are already paying 2/3 of the cost and therefore have the rights to look elsewhere for a car that will met all the current requirements since Bombardier has breach the contract in the first place. If this was taking place in the private sector, tenders would be already issues and most likely a contract awarded to someone else.

 

[Tuck]

The Spadina-York subway was funded in 2006 and will open 2017. The Eglinton Crosstown was funded in 2009 and will open in 2021. So the Spadina-York extension which was a 6 station extension to an existing line with no major interchange stations or obstacles is only 1 year less that a completely brand new line with 13 underground stations including 2 subway interchange stations, 2 GO interchange stations, and one outside the underground section which is a combined subway and GO station. So the TTC and Metrolinx aren't significantly different at this point, except that Metrolinx seems to have a plan with buffer already built in, while the TTC is actually late to plan.

The stations on the Spading extension are far, far more complicated than anything on the Eglinton line. Council had no business approving stations like that, but it became a vanity project, and so here we are. Plus someone died on site, causing construction to stop for 6 months, I think. Which is more the contractor's fault than the TTCs.

The stop spacing makes sense once people understand that wider spacing does not cause faster travel times.

This was modelled years ago. Increasing the LRT stop spacing caused usage of individual stations to increase (relative to the closer spacing), consequently increasing dwell times at each station. The result was overall travel times more or less identical to the closer spaced options. Thus our current stop spacing has been optimized to maximize ridership, understanding that the LRT will move at the same speed regardless of number of stops.

That said, speed really isn't an issue with the Crosstown. The western extension is projected to move as fast, or slightly faster than Line 2. The eastern section will be moving moderately slower than Line 2. The Crosstown as a whole will travel at speeds comparable to Line 2.

Thats really interesting actually - I didn't know this. Though this guy below makes a good point:

We are assuming that ECLRT will follow a subway-like operating paradigm where trams start promptly, accelerate quickly to full track speed, decelerate smartly, make quick platform stops, and carry on. Each stop adds a small amount of decelerate/dwell/accelerate delay. But the difference between 1 km spacing and 800m spacing doesn't cause much cumulative delay. In theory.

I can buy this, sort of, until I look at 501 on the Queensway and ask myself, what could go wrong.

One can't debate stop spacing without factoring in intersections, traffic control, schedule, track profile and condition, and headways.

To be on the safe side, I would argue for restricting stops. One can always add later.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The stations on the Spading extension are far, far more complicated than anything on the Eglinton line. Council had no business approving stations like that, but it became a vanity project, and so here we are. Plus someone died on site, causing construction to stop for 6 months, I think. Which is more the contractor's fault than the TTCs.

I'm no engineer, but something tells me that a subway station built in a dense urban area is much more complicated than one built in the middle of empty fields.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Regardless if TTC or Metrolinx is looking after building these extensions, they need to be P3 projects.

Why? Has't the auditor general already come out and said that Ontario's P3 model has cost taxpayers billions additional.

The east requires a complete EA and that is cutting it fine to have the line in operation by 2021. You would be lucky to see an EA late fall this year, but more like early 2017. Tender would have to go out in 2017 to have construction start in 2018. Unless work work takes 7/24 for building this extension, late 2021, more like mid 2022 would be opening date for it. You could open it in phases to speed things up for a 2021 date.

It shouldn't take 3 to 4 years to build it. With the Crosstown, surface construction was projected to take only 23 months. Based on that, Crosstown West and East should be able to start mid to late 2019 and still make the September 2021 deadline.

 

[facepalming_brooklynite]

the Spadina-York extension which was a 6 station extension to an existing line with no major interchange stations or obstacles is only 1 year less that a completely brand new line with 13 underground stations including 2 subway interchange stations, 2 GO interchange stations, and one outside the underground section which is a combined subway and GO station.

One of the new stations on the Spadina-York extension, Downsview Park, is an interchange station between subway and GO:
https://www.ttc.ca/Spadina/Stations/Sheppard_West_Station/index.jsp