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Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

BurlOak said:
Actually, I think the underground option was similar in cost to some of the proposed Scarborough Subway plans, depending on the route.

The Billion dollar question is who opposed the elevated option. Ford always talked about staying out of traffic. The Fords were the ones who proposed a monorail for downtown - monorail of course means elevated. I suspect that all Ford wanted was to get the Eglinton line away from traffic. He did not care (or know about) details such as type of grade separation or vehicle type. In all my search, I could not find out who opposed the elevation.
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You can't have opposition without proposition. In other words: nobody opposed elevated on Eglinton East for the reason that it was never proposed to begin with. All the costing, funds, and wording were for underground. There were only very brief murmurings of ELs in the media after the fact (which you and I have both posted in different threads). Had they actually costed or proposed ELs right from the get-go, there probably would've been up to $1bn in freed-up funds that could've gone toward any number of projects (but more than likely toward Ford's pet Sheppard extension).

As for the monorail plan... Doug was the guy that presented it, but it wasn't his plan. Rather an assortment of waterfront stakeholders and developers like Cityzen.

crs1026 said:
Elevated seems like a no-brainer choice for crossing the low spots such as the Humber River Valley, similar to how the Bloor Subway crosses the same river. If built on the south side, it would have a lot of esthetic value across the Islington-Martin Grove stretch, especially compared to a center-of-road alignment. No one benefits by constricting auto traffic here - it's a major roadway that ties in to the 401/427.

Don't rule out the Fords getting heavily involved in any LRT plan, eventually. This is their home turf. Elevated gives all the benefits of underground, at lower cost (how much lower, I wonder?). Takes some wind out of their sails.
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Agreed. But keep in mind the gruesome twosome are slow-witted incompetents who speak out of both sides of their collective mouths. They'll support elevated, but simultaneously support the NIMBYs opposing it.
 
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44 North said:
As for the monorail plan... Doug was the guy that presented it, but it wasn't his plan. Rather an assortment of waterfront stakeholders and developers like Cityzen.
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I agree it was not close to a developed plan, but it gives an indication that it was probably not Ford who opposed the elevated line but the partner who made the compromise plan - Premier Dalton McGuinty.

crs1026 said:
Elevated seems like a no-brainer choice for crossing the low spots such as the Humber River Valley, similar to how the Bloor Subway crosses the same river. If built on the south side, it would have a lot of esthetic value across the Islington-Martin Grove stretch, especially compared to a center-of-road alignment. No one benefits by constricting auto traffic here - it's a major roadway that ties in to the 401/427.
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I think I planned it for the north side from a portal East of Jane to just West of Kipling. Here it would go to the south side, to avoid some new townhomes and to more easily pass under the hydro corridor.

crs1026 said:
Don't rule out the Fords getting heavily involved in any LRT plan, eventually. This is their home turf. Elevated gives all the benefits of underground, at lower cost (how much lower, I wonder?). Takes some wind out of their sails.
- Paul
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The key for the anti-elevated people is to always ask if people like elevated or underground. When they chose underground, then the comparison becomes cost of underground vs. on-street LRT. Never let elevated transit to be compared with on-street LRT or else people will pick elevated every time.
 
BurlOak said:
I agree it was not close to a developed plan, but it gives an indication that it was probably not Ford who opposed the elevated line but the partner who made the compromise plan - Premier Dalton McGuinty.
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If you can find proof that an elevated Crosstown east was proposed, by all means speculate on why it was opposed (and who did the opposing). But since there was no proposition, there couldn't have been opposition.

Unless I'm wrong and there was an elevated Crosstown east proposed since its inception in MoveOntario2020 and Transit City? Was it ever mentioned in any of the Crosstown studies or EA? If it was, it would be news to me.
 
yin_yang said:
so when is this line scheduled to open?
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They've been throwing 2020 around for years, but the contract award a few weeks ago is a couple of years after it was supposed to be when they first started throwing 2020 around.

They've said that they'd be a new schedule come out after the financial close. And now that has happened (apparently at least - very bizarre that the contractor has announced to shareholders that they achieved financial close, but neither Metrolinx or Infrastructure Ontario have announced it), I'd think we'll have a date in a few months.

My money is on 2022.
 
nfitz said:
They've been throwing 2020 around for years, but the contract award a few weeks ago is a couple of years after it was supposed to be when they first started throwing 2020 around.

They've said that they'd be a new schedule come out after the financial close. And now that has happened (apparently at least - very bizarre that the contractor has announced to shareholders that they achieved financial close, but neither Metrolinx or Infrastructure Ontario have announced it), I'd think we'll have a date in a few months.

My money is on 2022.
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My understanding is the contract has penalties for being late. If the contractor team can make the target date they get more money. For every month they are late (except for things that are beyond their control) they lose money. So being able to meet the schedule is important to the shareholders.

That doesn't mean Metrolinx won't agree to extend the deadline without penalty at some point, or that things that are beyond their control won't interfere with the schedule.
 
I think that is correct. What we don't know, is what the target date is in that contract. I can only assume the lack of rushing to an announcement, is that it's not good. They are probably waiting for some massive news event to drop it while no one is looking. Election day?
 
44 North said:
If you can find proof that an elevated Crosstown east was proposed, by all means speculate on why it was opposed (and who did the opposing). But since there was no proposition, there couldn't have been opposition.

Unless I'm wrong and there was an elevated Crosstown east proposed since its inception in MoveOntario2020 and Transit City? Was it ever mentioned in any of the Crosstown studies or EA? If it was, it would be news to me.
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The only proof I have is this news article http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2010/12/20/elevated_transit_among_metrolinxs_alternatives.html

Elevated transit is among the alternatives Metrolinx is considering to address Toronto Mayor Rob Ford’s concerns about street-level light rail that takes away car lanes from city streets.
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Spokesman Brad Ross confirmed the TTC is studying elevated rail “to better understand the implications of such a system, including costs.”
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To me this says that it was considered, and I agree it was not killed due to any opposition to elevated transit. That still brings us back to the question of who killed it.

The only hint from the MOU (March 2011) is that the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown Project would be
in a tunnel except for short sections in the area of the Don Valley and, potentially near the Jane Street / Black Creek and Kennedy Stations.
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So does this mean it was hoped that Brentcliffe to Don Mills, Don Mills to Bermondsey, and West of Kennedy (maybe Ionview to Kennedy) would be elevated. That in itself would have saved a good chunk of money compared to the original estimate. Maybe they would have realized that there was no logical place near Bermondey to go underground and no place near Kennedy to come out of ground and then proposed keeping that entire 4 km section elevated - after all, 4km is still "short" (the wording in the MOU) compared to the 25 km length of the line. After this MOU, it appears that Ford switched to other priorities (drugs) and left it for TTC (Stintz) and Metrolinx (McCuiag and MTO Ministers Wynne or Chiarelli) to sort out the details of elevation.
 
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Still waiting for the TBM tracker map to be updated with any movement.

See link.

Wondering if after the TBMs (plural) has completed its assignment, if the map could be altered to show the development of actual laying of the permanent trackwork. Both underground and surface tracks.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Has any track work begun?
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The only trackwork there is are the temporary tracks to transport the dug out dirt or transporting workers and material. They will be replaced by the real trackwork later.

Or any covered over streetcar tracks on the road surface.
streetcar-4119-07.jpg
 
BurlOak said:
To me this says that it was considered, and I agree it was not killed due to any opposition to elevated transit. That still brings us back to the question of who killed it.
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The M.O.U. obviously "killed" it. That occurred only three months after your Star article, which suggests that an elevated option was given very little if any real consideration.
 
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