Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Dan416]

Brandon717, you're wasting your breath. The parrots on this board will not listen. They're just anti-Ford, all the time, regardless of what he says, they're against it. I guess it's a shame he wants to build subway. If he wanted to build LRT, they'd be calling for his head for cheaping out on Toronto and being too fiscally conservative.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Brandon717, you're wasting your breath. The parrots on this board will not listen. They're just anti-Ford, all the time, regardless of what he says, they're against it. I guess it's a shame he wants to build subway. If he wanted to build LRT, they'd be calling for his head for cheaping out on Toronto and being too fiscally conservative.

I can't speak for others on the forum but I'm not anti-Ford all the time. I praise him for how he has dealt with the unions. But when it comes to transit Rob Ford has done a horrible job. His transit "plan" in basically a fantasy that he can't find a way to pay for. Furthermore, I have yet to hear from any transit experts that actually support Ford's subway fantasy.

However, though Ford has done a terrible job managing transit there are certain things that I would support him on.

-If Ford proposed extending the Sheppard Subway west to Spadina and east to past Morningside with a way to pay for it I would support him 100%. Until that happens I am pro-LRT.

-I would support Ford's Eglinton "Subway", but only if a real crosstown subway was built instead of the LRT based "subway" Ford wants.

The saddest thing about Rob Fords transit vision is that it could be built if he would just create a small 2% property tax increase and a vehicle registration tax. But he is too stubborn to do that.

 

[calimehtar]

I love the defence of the Sheppard line, it really puts the transit debate in context assuming the facts are correct.

But unfortunately the anti-ford thing is rational - if he, or anyone, had a plan to pay for a Sheppard line we could have a rational discussion about it. As it is, it's really transit city or nothing to over-simplify a bit.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I love the defence of the Sheppard line, it really puts the transit debate in context assuming the facts are correct.

But unfortunately the anti-ford thing is rational - if he, or anyone, had a plan to pay for a Sheppard line we could have a rational discussion about it. As it is, it's really transit city or nothing to over-simplify a bit.

Plans to pay for the Sheppard subway and other lines have been proposed. But the Ford twins are far too stubborn to support any of them and because of that Ford's transit fantasy has predictably failed.

 

[jje1000]

I love the defence of the Sheppard line, it really puts the transit debate in context assuming the facts are correct.

But unfortunately the anti-ford thing is rational - if he, or anyone, had a plan to pay for a Sheppard line we could have a rational discussion about it. As it is, it's really transit city or nothing to over-simplify a bit.

100% true. Anyone can draw lines in the sand, but as they say- talk is cheap. Those who want a Sheppard line should be angry at Ford for his refusing to have a civil discussion and lack of a serious plan, not the councillors who saw through his bluster and voted for the better of the two options on the table.

 

[car4041]

When you start looking at other cities, you soon learn Sheppard subway isn't under-utilized at all. AT ALL.

Comparisons with Chicago evidently don't prove much, because the Sheppard subway requires a subsidy of $8 per rider while the TTC system as a whole requires just 84 cents per rider. That would seem to indicate that the Sheppard line is not the roaring success you make it out to be...

 

[Palma]

Brandon717, you're wasting your breath. The parrots on this board will not listen. They're just anti-Ford, all the time, regardless of what he says, they're against it. I guess it's a shame he wants to build subway. If he wanted to build LRT, they'd be calling for his head for cheaping out on Toronto and being too fiscally conservative.

If Ford is pushing for subways he should push ;it for the urban areas such as DRL. Him pushing Shappard is just political

 

[W. K. Lis]

Comparisons with Chicago evidently don't prove much, because the Sheppard subway requires a subsidy of $8 per rider while the TTC system as a whole requires just 84 cents per rider. That would seem to indicate that the Sheppard line is not the roaring success you make it out to be...

Check out this link for a listing on farebox recovery ratio. The TTC recovers 66.7% (2009) revenue from the farebox, GO Transit recovers 88.4% (2008), Chicago CTA 55.2% (2010), Montréal STM 57.1% (2006), Los Angeles LACMTA 30.6% (2004), New York City MTA 55.5% (2009), etc.

 

[BurlOak]

However, though Ford has done a terrible job managing transit there are certain things that I would support him on.

-If Ford proposed extending the Sheppard Subway west to Spadina and east to past Morningside with a way to pay for it I would support him 100%. Until that happens I am pro-LRT.

-I would support Ford's Eglinton "Subway", but only if a real crosstown subway was built instead of the LRT based "subway" Ford wants.

The saddest thing about Rob Fords transit vision is that it could be built if he would just create a small 2% property tax increase and a vehicle registration tax. But he is too stubborn to do that.

The critical thing for Ford to do on the transit file was to act quickly because some of Transit City spending had already started - including the LRT vehicle purchase. He did that. Either Ford, or Stintz and the TTC negotiating with Metrolinx, should have considered options for vehicle type early in the process. Instead, they sat on the Memorandum of Understanding for a year and let it get defeated. I don't think Ford wanted an LRT based subway on Eglinton, but he did not get any support from TTC to switch. All Ford wanted was a transit line that does not interfere with traffic. The rest was left up to TTC and Metrolinx to plan.

For Sheppard, I think it would be even harder to find a transit expert who want to extend the Subway to Morningside than to STC.

 

[Voltz]

Comparisons with Chicago evidently don't prove much, because the Sheppard subway requires a subsidy of $8 per rider while the TTC system as a whole requires just 84 cents per rider. That would seem to indicate that the Sheppard line is not the roaring success you make it out to be...

As well, I doubt that Chicago concentrated One Billion Dollars on their line, while starving the rest of the city of needed transit infrastructure and spending One Hundred Million Dollars in operating subsidy in the first decade of operation.

 

[rbt]

I don't think Ford wanted an LRT based subway on Eglinton, but he did not get any support from TTC to switch.

TTC is required by law to follow the will of council and to a lesser extent the commission (one handles big picture and the other the day-to-day). The last orders given by council were done under Miller. TTC did stop work on both Sheppard and Eglinton (surface) and perform engineering work to put it underground on Ford's direct request which went against standing orders from council.

Normally, council should have requested a study be performed or direct the work. TTC should not, from a legal perspective, have followed any of those directions Ford gave.

I think TTC bent over about as far as they could before receiving a private citizens lawsuit.

 

[BurlOak]

TTC is required by law to follow the will of council and to a lesser extent the commission (one handles big picture and the other the day-to-day). The last orders given by council were done under Miller. TTC did stop work on both Sheppard and Eglinton (surface) and perform engineering work to put it underground on Ford's direct request which went against standing orders from council.

Normally, council should have requested a study be performed or direct the work. TTC should not, from a legal perspective, have followed any of those directions Ford gave.

I think TTC bent over about as far as they could before receiving a private citizens lawsuit.

I would have thought that if Ford was negotiating with the Province and experts from Metrolinx, he could at least bring some experts of his own to the table.

 

[rbt]

I would have thought that if Ford was negotiating with the Province and experts from Metrolinx, he could at least bring some experts of his own to the table.

Certainly. He might even have taken TTC staff if he had council take 5 minutes to give that direction or gave the mayor control of that file.

Council votes on hundreds of things during the course of a normal council meeting with very little time investment. Something like "Direct TTC to study, provide material, and assist the mayor on Eglinton as a subway and Sheppard Subway" would have taken 30 seconds in any of the first 3 council meetings and Ford would have had what he wanted.

The city's legal department told him as much early on when he started giving TTC direction directly.

 

[BurlOak]

Certainly. He might even have taken TTC staff if he had council take 5 minutes to give that direction or gave the mayor control of that file.

Council votes on hundreds of things during the course of a normal council meeting with very little time investment. Something like "Direct TTC to study, provide material, and assist the mayor on Eglinton as a subway and Sheppard Subway" would have taken 30 seconds in any of the first 3 council meetings and Ford would have had what he wanted.

The city's legal department told him as much early on when he started giving TTC direction directly.

It seems that this process is rigidly adhered to. Was anyone at TTC reprimanded for doing any type of work on this file without Council approval?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The critical thing for Ford to do on the transit file was to act quickly because some of Transit City spending had already started - including the LRT vehicle purchase. He did that. Either Ford, or Stintz and the TTC negotiating with Metrolinx, should have considered options for vehicle type early in the process. Instead, they sat on the Memorandum of Understanding for a year and let it get defeated. I don't think Ford wanted an LRT based subway on Eglinton, but he did not get any support from TTC to switch. All Ford wanted was a transit line that does not interfere with traffic. The rest was left up to TTC and Metrolinx to plan.

For Sheppard, I think it would be even harder to find a transit expert who want to extend the Subway to Morningside than to STC.

If I were Ford I would have increased property tax and reinstated the vehicle registration tax to built the Jane, Don Mills or Waterfront LRT and move the LRVs to those lines. Then I would have built the Eglinton subway and the Sheppard extension to STC and Spadina. To me that seems like the logical thing to do. But I guess that will always be a fantasy.

But when considering the complete lack of leadership by the Ford twins we got the best deal we possibly could. But its too bad that in 30 to 40 years we will be ripping up the LRT lines to replace them with subways.