Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Coolstar]

With the number of level crossing/intersections, I wonder how this is going to be a rapid transit...

I still have hope that the city changed or will change their minds about adding priority to the line.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If anyone has a date that they want to put money on, be careful.... the one thing for certain is that you will be wrong.

The outstanding construction certainly points to a couple more years' work - but even beyond that, is there any reason to believe that commissioning will be any smoother than what we saw in Ottawa and Kitchener?

Both had target opening dates, but blew by them over and over as commissioning testing progressed. Crosstown may be similar.

- Paul

Im sure opinions will vary, but I’ve heard people in the industry claim that systems installation, testing and commissioning is in many ways riskier and more challenging than building the physical structures. There is nothing straightforward about getting thousands upon thousands of components working together perfectly. So I’d caution against using physical progresses as an indicator of completeness.

 

[Coolstar]

Has the order for the sod, trees, and green landscaping been placed?

Not to my knowledge. I don't really follow the Eglinton Connects project.

 

[rbt]

... even beyond that, is there any reason to believe that commissioning will be any smoother than what we saw in Ottawa and Kitchener?

I think so. There's very few pieces of Crosstown that's actually new to Toronto. The LRVs, rails, communication system, signalling system, etc. are very similar to things TTC already uses on a day-to-day basis. Finding emergency consultants for problems should be easy. Crosstown will likely be similar to the Spadina extension hand-off timeline; though that project did include a substantial new to Toronto piece (the automated control system).

Ottawa, and to a lesser extent Kitchener struggled to bring in people who knew the gear, local staff spent a lot of time learning on the fly from documentation.

 

[W. K. Lis]

MX didn't even add transit signal priority (the city didn't let them), what a joke.

Secret letters detail Ford government efforts to control Ontario’s supposedly arm’s-length transit agency

From link.

Months after taking office in 2018, the Ontario PC government issued a written directive to Metrolinx prohibiting the supposedly arm’s-length transit agency from communicating with the public about key issues without ministry approval.

The letter was one of nine confidential ministerial directives sent to Metrolinx over the first 21 months of the Progressive Conservatives’ mandate. In them, the provincial government also gave direction to the agency about expensive and politically charged projects like a new Woodbine GO station, Toronto subways and the Hurontario LRT.

Experts and the official opposition say the letters, which have not previously been made public but were obtained by the Star through a freedom of information request, raise concerns the Doug Ford PCs are increasingly treating the powerful organization as an arm of government while presenting its decisions as independent.

Matti Siemiatycki, an associate professor in the University of Toronto’s geography and planning department who has studied transit governance, said that while concerns about Metrolinx’s independence predate the current provincial government, the letters indicate the degree to which “the province is starting to bring Metrolinx closer under (its) control,” to the extent that the Crown corporation is “increasingly an extended division of the ministry of transportation.”

“The initial view that Metrolinx was going to be an independent agency, arm’s-length from government, providing advice ... that line is really now starting to be blurred,” he said.

Christina Salituro, a spokesperson for Transportation Minister Caroline Mulroney, framed the letters as an appropriate tool for the government to exercise its legislative role overseeing Metrolinx.

In an email, Salituro said Mulroney and previous Ontario PC transportation ministers issued the directives “to ensure that the agency’s actions are aligned with the government’s priorities,” and they are “one way that we can ensure” Metrolinx projects “use taxpayer dollars appropriately.”

Metrolinx was created in 2006 by the previous Ontario Liberal government as an arm’s-length agency to co-ordinate transit planning in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area. It’s responsible for the GO Transit network, the Presto fare card system and planning major projects like the Ontario Line and Scarborough subway extension.

The legislation that created the organization stipulates transportation ministers can issue written directives for the agency to carry out.

After taking office in June 2018, the Ontario PC government accelerated the use of the directives. Between November 2018 and November 2019, Progressive Conservative transportation ministers issued nine letters, compared to only three between August 2017 and the end of the Liberals’ mandate, according to information provided to a Queen’s Park committee by Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster earlier this year.

The first letter, written Nov. 26, 2018, by then-transportation minister Jeff Yurek, outlined, among other directives, “changes to communications protocol” that were effective immediately. The new policy required “ministry approval of all public-facing communication” by the agency, except those relating day-to-day customer service issues, and required Metrolinx officials to receive government approval for any public speaking engagements.

The minister also took the unusual step of barring Metrolinx officials from meeting with members of the media. Such meetings are a common practice among officials and journalists.

“Media contact is to be limited to reactive responses to media inquiries approved by the ministry. There will be no informal meetings with media ... unless approved in advance by the ministry,” the letter stated.

Salituro, the ministry spokesperson, explained the protocol was necessary because “clear and consistent communication is vital to all major transportation projects and plans.”

Metrolinx spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins said the agency had a similar communications protocol under the previous Liberal government, and it “ensures we manage media questions in partnership with our government.” She noted that media requests about transit operations, such as those relating to GO Transit service, make up more than half of media requests to the agency, and don’t require approval from the ministry.

Asked whether the former Liberal government had a similar communications policy in place, a spokesperson for the Ontario Liberal Party said, “as with all government agencies there were regular touch points with the Ministry of Transportation officials and Metrolinx to ensure coordination, but to the best of our recollection no letter of direction was given to Metrolinx related to government control or approvals over agency communications.”

Siemiatycki said having the provincial government approve Metrolinx’s communications about transit planning and other important issues raises red flags. One of the agency’s most important roles is to evaluate plans for multi-billion-dollar transportation projects, and communicate the results to the public while also advising government.

With the ministry in charge of the agency’s communications, “from the public’s perspective, certainly it’s not clear whether Metrolinx is speaking or the ministry,” Siemiatycki warned.

Under the PCs’ media protocol, the public has no way of knowing whether Metrolinx’s statements about projects are based on its own independent analysis, or has been “politically approved,” Siemiatycki said.

“There needs to be transparency.”

On July 17, 2019, Yurek issued a letter about the Hurontario LRT, a $1.4 billion rail line planned for Mississauga and Brampton. Yurek wrote the government was reviewing spending on transportation projects, and it had approved the “de-scoping,” or scaling back, of the LRT.

The version of the letter provided to the Star by the ministry of transportation is partially redacted, but it shows the minister directed Metrolinx to eliminate the planned “loop” on the LRT’s route that would have taken the line around Square One Mall.

Translated... after "careful examination" there will not be full transit priority because the automobile is "king" in Doug Ford's mind (allegedly).

 

[daniel_kryz]

Secret letters detail Ford government efforts to control Ontario’s supposedly arm’s-length transit agency

From link.



Translated... after "careful examination" there will not be full transit priority because the automobile is "king" in Doug Ford's mind (allegedly).

There won't be transit priority for Toronto LRTs because City Hall (or Transportation Services) made that decision. It wasn't up to MX. Hurontario will have transit priority!

 

[Tunafish13]

Im conflicted, because i've definitely seen transit specific signalling at many of the above ground stations (similar to the signalling on Spadina for the streetcars) and I dont know if that counts as TSP or not....

I can post pictures if people want to see what im talking about

 

[ADRM]

Ottawa, and to a lesser extent Kitchener struggled to bring in people who knew the gear, local staff spent a lot of time learning on the fly from documentation.

FWIW, Ottawa also brought in a team of TTC operators to help them work through their issues in the early going.

 

[Amare]

Im conflicted, because i've definitely seen transit specific signalling at many of the above ground stations (similar to the signalling on Spadina for the streetcars) and I dont know if that counts as TSP or not....

I can post pictures if people want to see what im talking about

The signaling is there, however it isnt activated. Basically it's just a set of traffic lights for streetcars right now.

 

[Ozman]

Like others have said; I'd like to be more optimistic but I can't really see it happening. There is so much more work to be done - a lot of it technical/electrical/signal stuff that requires a lot of diligence and testing to get right and to iron all the bugs out.

I live near the construction and have attended most of the meetings, and open-houses and have followed the progress closely since 2007 here and else-where on-line. Based on how long it's taken to get this far, I can't seem them opening for revenue service in 25 months. (As a matter of fact the scheduled start is exactly that - September 29, 2021.)

One thing that I haven't heard mentioned too much is the fact that there have been no (major) delays so far, at least that they (Metrolinx and Crosslinx) have publicly admitted. Thank goodness for that, but just think if a strike at one or two of the unions happens then the schedule is completely out the window. Or worse, if a major accident happened all work could stop for an inquest (rightfully so) but that would set things back years.

Imagine, heaven forbid, that a collapse occurred at Cedarvale or Eglinton & Yonge. Even if no one was injured or killed, Line 1 could be severely compromised and this would paralyze public transit in this city for months or years not too mention set back Line 5 construction.

So far (fingers crossed) we've avoided these major and less-major calamities but based on other transit projects (here and elsewhere) I don't see everything staying right on schedule. One advantage might be that it is a completely new line so retro-fitting and trying to simultaneously run an existing service with slightly different technologies is not an issue with the Crosstown.

Finally, I question at what point Metrolinx will actually admit they are behind. Having gone to many meetings I have little confidence that they will either have the knowledge or the desire to be upfront with the public. They just tell you what you want to hear and also those who know don't seem to talk and those talk rarely know too much.

Hopefully I'm proven wrong and we'll be gliding under Eglinton in two years time and everything will have gone swimmingly.

For now my prediction for opening day of revenue service is August 1, 2023.

I don't prefer quoting myself, but I said the above on August 29, 2019. And that was before I knew of the problems/delays under the Line 1 Eglinton Station and certainly before COVID.

At this point I'm sticking with my prediction for revenue service: August 1, 2023.

 

[robmausser]

I think so. There's very few pieces of Crosstown that's actually new to Toronto. The LRVs, rails, communication system, signalling system, etc. are very similar to things TTC already uses on a day-to-day basis. Finding emergency consultants for problems should be easy. Crosstown will likely be similar to the Spadina extension hand-off timeline; though that project did include a substantial new to Toronto piece (the automated control system).

Ottawa, and to a lesser extent Kitchener struggled to bring in people who knew the gear, local staff spent a lot of time learning on the fly from documentation.

Also, one would HOPE that many of the bugs on the ION vehicles will have been fixed on these ones, as they are the same model, and any issues resolved with the confederation line will have been learned and passed on to this project.

One would hope, but this is government so you never know.

 

[gweed123]

Also, one would HOPE that many of the bugs on the ION vehicles will have been fixed on these ones, as they are the same model, and any issues resolved with the confederation line will have been learned and passed on to this project.

One would hope, but this is government so you never know.

To extend that logic, Ottawa's experience should help Metrolinx's commissioning of Finch West, since they're using the same vehicles. I'm thinking specifically of the door issues.

 

[smallspy]

The signaling is there, however it isnt activated. Basically it's just a set of traffic lights for streetcars right now.

That's not actually specifically true.

The streetcar signals work via a loop sensor between the rails mounted far enough back from the intersection that the hope is that there is enough time to change the lights to be favourable for the streetcars. And due to where they are located, it works better at some intersections than others.

It's not true predictive signal priority, which the Transportation Department is against, but it's something. And that's likely what will be installed along the surface sections of Eglinton.

Dan

 

[Amare]

That's not actually specifically true.

The streetcar signals work via a loop sensor between the rails mounted far enough back from the intersection that the hope is that there is enough time to change the lights to be favourable for the streetcars. And due to where they are located, it works better at some intersections than others.

It's not true predictive signal priority, which the Transportation Department is against, but it's something. And that's likely what will be installed along the surface sections of Eglinton.

Dan

Sounds similar to Traffic Priority Signalling, is that what you're referring to? Or is this something completely separate?

 

[vz64]

Secret letters detail Ford government efforts to control Ontario’s supposedly arm’s-length transit agency

From link.



Translated... after "careful examination" there will not be full transit priority because the automobile is "king" in Doug Ford's mind (allegedly).

I think a signal priority could help a bit, but it would not solve the problem of too many surface crossing... With frequency of 5 min, we have two trains passing each intersection, each 2 m 30 sec. Minus time to cross (say 15 sec) and some buffer time to change the light (another 15 sec) it leaves only 2 min. So, if traffic light is green for left turns, there is a good chance that a train will need to stop anyway and then to wait for the crossing traffic...