Toronto Cielo Condos | 120.5m | 34s | Collecdev-Markee | KPMB

You're kidding, right? Planning approvals should be handed out for whatever ask as long as the developer says that this is what they need to fix the joint up? I think it will be closer to 29, and that the church better figure out how to afford their renovations* from less GFA.

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*With all the changes planned to the church, it's hard to call them restorations.

Not quite - the ask wasn't that ridiculous relative to what's around it, and context (subway station access) certainly suggests what's currently there right now is a serious underuse of the area. Wrong hill to die on, basically - and I'd rather see a proper renovation at a higher GFA than the previous atrocity.

AoD
 
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Like the 'space between' the church and the new build fronting Bloor. Another example would be Allen Lambert Galleria in Brookfield Place.

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Disliking the above-grade parking. I know they're constrained, but they need to strip it completely as a requirement. It's at Bloor and Spadina for crying out loud. Make some at-grade delivery and drop-off space and be done with it.
 

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Like the 'space between' the church and the new build fronting Bloor. Another example would be Allen Lambert Galleria in Brookfield Place.

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Disliking the above-grade parking. I know they're constrained, but they need to strip it completely as a requirement. It's at Bloor and Spadina for crying out loud. Make some at-grade delivery and drop-off space and be done with it.

It's funny you say that -- at the public consultation, a few residents expressed a concern about the lack of vehicular parking (not making this up), and the proponent's response was "well, this is on one of the city's two subway lines and it's right on the Bloor bike lanes."
 
I also really dislike (hate, actually) above grade parking. I can also already hear the hand wringing from locals regarding the height of this proposal.
 
I also really dislike (hate, actually) above grade parking. I can also already hear the hand wringing from locals regarding the height of this proposal.

It can't be underground here because of the subway, and the height has certainly already been raised as a big issue; it will shrink at least somewhat, so I think the question is how much of the "special" elements of the proposal (scale and type of restoration, interior courtyard space, etc.) are lost as a result.
 
Wish they could somehow restore the old bloor street entrance as part of all of this development. The ugly tacked on part in front of the original doors is unsightly and doesn't really add to street life. I suppose though that there would be a grade issue /accessibility issues.
 
Wish they could somehow restore the old bloor street entrance as part of all of this development. The ugly tacked on part in front of the original doors is unsightly and doesn't really add to street life. I suppose though that there would be a grade issue /accessibility issues.

Redoing the Bloor entrance and making the church fully accessible (by bringing the entire ground floor even with the street) are both proposed here.
 
Description of what next week's meeting will cover, from Cressy's latest newsletter:

Bloor Street United Church Public Consultation
November 21st, 2017, 6:30 pm- 8:30 pm
Bloor Street United Church, 300 Bloor Street West

Bloor Street United Church is hosting their third public consultation on their development proposal, which is still at the pre-application stage. The project team will be providing further information based on the feedback that they have heard to date and the format will include discussions related to 1. Traffic and Parking, 2. Public Realm and Built Form, 3. Community Services, and 4. Shadow Studies.
 
So the pitchforks were out again last night at the latest public consultation. It's hard for me not to conclude, sometimes, that some of the worst people in Toronto live in the Annex.

I won't re-hash the NIMBY rallying cries (unless anyone has specific questions about the areas of focus), because none of them are really worth dignifying and some are downright loonie tunes. It's worth noting, though, that the community (at least insofar as "community" is defined as the NIMBYs who will form the "working group" that is the sole officially organized conduit for community feedback) is diametrically opposed to this, that the ARA seems to be pulling some bullshit behind the scenes, and that I'd be extremely surprised if this doesn't wind up at the OMB (if it winds up being the case that the timing works such that the proponents can avail themselves of it).

There were no revised renderings presented, but a couple design changes were discussed:
- Elimination of Huron-fronting townhouses
- Reduction in the number of parking levels from 4 to 2 and the introduction of a fully automated parking system

The one new rendering they had on-hand was of the cafe and Koerner Hall-esque public space, which I'll post when I can.

The proponents also clarified that they still intend to submit the application before the end of the year. I asked them if they're doing that because their interpretation of the next steps vis-a-vis OMB reform is that they'll still be able to avail themselves of it if they submit their application before EOY, but they said they're really not sure how that's all going to shake out, so are just sticking to the timeline they'd originally laid out.

There was discussion of the precedent set by the Bloor-fronting, OMB-approved tower just west of here (can't recall the address), which Cressy confirmed will be 29 storeys, and whether that's impacting the proposed height here. The proponents were a little cagey (they have not chopped anything off the 39 storeys currently proposed), but their cautious responses gave me the impression that they think they can get something closer to 39 than 29 at the OMB.

At the start of the meeting, Cressy again said he thinks "the right height" for the tower is "somewhere in the teens". Without saying it explicitly, the proponents certainly intimated that they need to be somewhere between 29 and 39 to make this financially viable in its current form, pointing to the costs associated with the below-grade "bridge" over the subway, automated parking system, public concourse, and extensive renovation to the church itself.
 
If the "community" views this as a cash grab, they should take a field trip to Blue Diamond to see what one actually looks like. While I'd like to see greater heritage retention, including on the bloor street frontage, this project runs laps around Blue Diamond or the St. Patrick Church or Metropolitan United proposals.
 
The development team should literally show before and after shots of the Deer Park church as an "alternative" to this project.
 
Thank you for update, @ADRM.

In context of this proposal, it should be noted that as of 2016, 51% of Annex dwellings are in apartments/condos above 5 storeys tall (source: city census report).

It's time to change the narrative: there are many houses in the Annex but the majority of units that residents in the neighbourhood live in are in mid-rise and high-rise buildings.

Time to write to planning and my councillor about this one, I see.
 
If the "community" views this as a cash grab, they should take a field trip to Blue Diamond to see what one actually looks like. While I'd like to see greater heritage retention, including on the bloor street frontage, this project runs laps around Blue Diamond or the St. Patrick Church or Metropolitan United proposals.

What do you mean by greater heritage retention? They're retaining the exterior church effectively in its entirety and removing a truly god-awful non-heritage addition, and they're also preserving Pigeon House in situ.
 
Thank you for update, @ADRM.

In context of this proposal, it should be noted that as of 2016, 51% of Annex dwellings are in apartments/condos above 5 storeys tall (source: city census report).

It's time to change the narrative: there are many houses in the Annex but the majority of units that residents in the neighbourhood live in are in mid-rise and high-rise buildings.

Time to write to planning and my councillor about this one, I see.

Absolutely -- it's really important that Cressy hears from people who support this density on site. It speaks volumes about which of his constituents he's catering to that the sole stakeholder group that will be consulted is the Annex Residents Association (of which the two people I describe below are vocal members).

Not to give the crazies airtime they don't deserve, but of the people who decried the project in the Q&A, we had (among others):
- A woman who said no new structure in the Annex should be taller than 3 storeys (after, of course, revealing she's a resident of 95 Prince Arthur, which itself is 8 storeys tall, but before she handed out flyers detailing how this development will destroy the neighbourhood and explaining how residents can most effectively oppose the project)
- A woman who demanded both to see the church's financials and evidence that 100% of their community spaces are at 100% capacity 100% of the time
- A man who owns two single family homes on St. George who complained that the shadowing will ruin his tomato garden
 
What do you mean by greater heritage retention? They're retaining the exterior church effectively in its entirety and removing a truly god-awful non-heritage addition, and they're also preserving Pigeon House in situ.

I’m speaking solely of the small western addition with the big red doors. I know that you and others here whose opinions I respect have suggested the addition is an ‘affront’ and ‘god-awful’. It certainly represents one generation aping the styles/materials of an earlier generation. And is a rather clumsy massing in that it compromises the grandeur of the original western frontage. But it also has its own visual and historic interest and I really can’t see it as an ‘affront’. The addition actually made more sense when adjacent to single family homes: http://static.torontopubliclibrary.ca/da/images/LC/pictures-r-169.jpg.

Even presently, though, I don’t mind the slight cloistered effect the addition adds to the small outdoor space. And I often like how our buildings and even landmarks have the additions/interpretations of different eras globbed onto them with varying degrees of sensitivity and success. In lots of case, don’t see the need to strip heritage buildings down to its bones.

If the addition was to be lost, it should really be simply to open up views of the original western wall of the church. To be frank, though, I’m not sure I have enough of a handle of the new plans, as we have limited renderings in that regard, so I may be/have been premature to comment in that regard.
 

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