Toronto CIBC SQUARE | 241.39m | 50s | Hines | WilkinsonEyre

[Observer Walt]

Improving energy efficiency could involve a skin replacement, among other things. Having said that, the iconic status of the TD Centre is such that a new skin would have to be a pretty close imitation of the existing one, or it won't go over well. It's not quite the same situation as FCP, where I think not so many people would shed tears at a more major change of appearance.

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I think it would be a case of dreaming in technicolor to imagine that we will see a tower at 45 Bay Street, any time in the next five years at least. There is a lot of empty space on the market or about to be, and it will have to be absorbed first. It depends on the economy of course, but I think it will be four or five years to absorb existing supply, before any preleasing could even seriously start at 45 Bay. In turn, the design could change completely by that time.

Also, it may be overlooked sometimes that we still have about 275,000 square feet of office space coming on stream next year at Maple Leaf Square.

 

[wyliepoon]

The effect a building like this would have on Toronto's skyline would be massive. It would probably be the most noticeable building on Toronto's skyline after the CN Tower (even more noticeable than First Canadian Place).

Let me demonstrate with a simple Sketchup model on Google Earth...

Toronto Islands Ferry view

Toronto Islands skyline view

View from the Portlands

CN Tower Sky Pod looking east

Island Airport view

(here's the link to my Sketchup/Google Earth model if you want to play around with it in Google Earth: http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=5ecf5c3d4d096baae9ef79508f816d93)

Anything this big and this up-front on Toronto' skyline would have to be carefully designed. Nothing less than a landmark building would really mess up the Toronto skyline for years to come. Honestly the model I've produced based on the PDF presentation more often than not looks like a massive slab on the skyline... which I think is unacceptable. Maybe a more slender point tower would be more appropriate.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Very nice display, though I do believe the model is somewhat overstated.
Take for instance that the current proposal for 45 Bay st. has its height pegged at about 800ft.
Yet in this render;

CN Tower Sky Pod looking east

It is made out to be taller than the pinnacle of the TD Canada Trust Tower which is over 850ft tall.



Also in this render;

Toronto Islands skyline view

It is made out to be significantly taller than Ice, while Ice itself is only shown to be slight taller than MLS despite the difference in height being more or less the same. (45 Bay 800ft vs Ice 710ft vs MLS 610ft)

I know they are just renders but it may give the wrong impression about its impact. Which undoubtedly will be significant, just not that massive. What has been illustrated is a proposal that would be approaching 1,000ft!

Now 45 Bay could possibly end up getting a height increase, but I don't think that's too likely as this initial proposal has already exceed the zoning restrictions set out by the city.

 

[Filip]

The way this tower is designed (atrium, winter garden, design elements not usually found in our towers) means SITQ seems to be looking to leasing this tower to a head office.

A company simply looking for extra space would not go into such a daring, and probably expensive psf, tower.

Which brings me to this; what company do we have in Toronto could possibly end up in this kind of tower? Manulife doesn't count as they're most likely to end up building their tower with their own capital.

 

[whatever]

I think what throws the sketchup render off is the elevation change in the Toronto landscape. I don't know the exact numbers, but I do know there's a significant change in elevation from Lake Shore Blvd to King St., so this new building is going to appear shorter than it is when viewed up against our skyline.

It's basically going to be the same height as BA, but it'll sit on lower ground. It will look dominant from the south (obviously), but from the east or west it's not going to look that impressive.

 

[Conrad Black]

I'd rather is not dominate the skyline so much from the lake. I'd rather it fit in. We already have one CN Tower that dominates and that's enough.

 

[Ramako]

The way this tower is designed (atrium, winter garden, design elements not usually found in our towers) means SITQ seems to be looking to leasing this tower to a head office.

A company simply looking for extra space would not go into such a daring, and probably expensive psf, tower.

Which brings me to this; what company do we have in Toronto could possibly end up in this kind of tower? Manulife doesn't count as they're most likely to end up building their tower with their own capital.

Onex is a pretty large private equity investment firm with space in Brookfield Place, and one of the larger employers in the country. Maybe they'll want their own tower like KPMG. Or perhaps Bell - seeing what Telus has done - will want to increase its visible presence in Toronto, knowing that a bunch of foreign wireless providers will be entering the market over the next few years. There's also Magna, which seems to be doing pretty well and is becoming very active internationally.

Keep in mind that it wouldn't have to be a world-headquarters, but simply a company that wants to raise its profile in Toronto. I'd never heard of KPMG until they leased the BA Centre, but soon they'll be an easily recognized name in the city. Same thing with Pricewaterhouse Coopers. Perhaps Deloitte & Touche will want to retaliate. They employ almost 8000 workers spread around the city.

I also expect that SITQ themselves would want to take up a substantial amount of that space.

 

[Ramako]

I'd rather is not dominate the skyline so much from the lake. I'd rather it fit in. We already have one CN Tower that dominates and that's enough.

The CN Tower is gargantuan from the lake. Even if SITQ was over 300 metres tall, the CN Tower would still easily dominate. If anything a supertall in this location might help to balance the skyline.

 

[Filip]

Onex is a pretty large private equity investment firm with space in Brookfield Place, and one of the larger employers in the country. Maybe they'll want their own tower like KPMG. Or perhaps Bell - seeing what Telus has done - will want to increase its visible presence in Toronto, knowing that a bunch of foreign wireless providers will be entering the market over the next few years. There's also Magna, which seems to be doing pretty well and is becoming very active internationally.

Keep in mind that it wouldn't have to be a world-headquarters, but simply a company that wants to raise its profile in Toronto. I'd never heard of KPMG until they leased the BA Centre, but soon they'll be an easily recognized name in the city. Same thing with Pricewaterhouse Coopers. Perhaps Deloitte & Touche will want to retaliate. They employ almost 8000 workers spread around the city.

I also expect that SITQ themselves would want to take up a substantial amount of that space.

SITQ is the Quebec pension fund.. I don't see them needing any substantial office space in Toronto. Maybe taking 1-2 floors for operations' sake but only for the real estate arm.
Magna has no business downtown, and likely would never build a tower there.. Onex is the most likely, but I don't believe they have that many employees.

EDIT.. I do realize Onex has many employees, but very few of them are HQ type. I'd assume their figures include Cineplex and a host of other holding companies that would not go into their tower. From what I understand they only lease 1 floor of Brookfield Place.

 

[taal]

SITQ is the Quebec pension fund.. I don't see them needing any substantial office space in Toronto. Maybe taking 1-2 floors for operations' sake but only for the real estate arm.
Magna has no business downtown, and likely would never build a tower there.. Onex is the most likely, but I don't believe they have that many employees.

Well according to Wikipedia they have, drum roll, a grand total of:
237,000

employees : - )

Before you get too excited, Onex owns a great number of companies and I'm sure this includes every single one of them. The company it self probably have very few employees in the grand scheme of things - direct employees that is.

In terms of tenants here - my number one guess would be, once the 3/4 new towers are full - the firms that get left behind in the older buildings may eventually want new space.

By that I mean companies wanting to consolidate office space. For the near future, companies can do this in the older stock of large downtown office buildings - as companies move to newer buildings it'll leave large holes in these.

One thing to remember is while downtown office rates were very low, the more prevalent factor in all this construction was a lack of any large contiguous office space downtown. Yes these are generally one and the same.

Anyway, so until a lot of the large chunks of space are filled i wouldn't hold my breadth.

 

[Filip]

Precisely. (which is why I had edited my post, see above) Onex has many employees, but that includes employees working in their manufacturing division in the States, Cineplex, etc... Onex itself probably has a few hundred at most which is why their HQ is only the top floor of the Bay-Wellington tower.

In the grand scheme of things all Toronto-based companies have already built their HQ and likely aren't planning to move. We are mirred with Canadian protectionist laws which prevent foreign banks from operating which is probably why our skyline isn't dotted with their towers.

 

[down on the upside]

Onex is a pretty large private equity investment firm with space in Brookfield Place, and one of the larger employers in the country. Maybe they'll want their own tower like KPMG. Or perhaps Bell - seeing what Telus has done - will want to increase its visible presence in Toronto, knowing that a bunch of foreign wireless providers will be entering the market over the next few years. There's also Magna, which seems to be doing pretty well and is becoming very active internationally.

Keep in mind that it wouldn't have to be a world-headquarters, but simply a company that wants to raise its profile in Toronto. I'd never heard of KPMG until they leased the BA Centre, but soon they'll be an easily recognized name in the city. Same thing with Pricewaterhouse Coopers. Perhaps Deloitte & Touche will want to retaliate. They employ almost 8000 workers spread around the city.

I also expect that SITQ themselves would want to take up a substantial amount of that space.

most finance firms dont have too many employees to begin with. the number your citing for Onex includes all of the companies Onex owns, usually manufacturing like Celestica or healthcare jobs. Same with Magna.

KPMG is one of the 4 biggest accounting firms in the world, they're already easily well recognized. I think PWC and KPMG are trying to raise their profile with name recognition, but Deloitte already moved a significant number of their employees to Vaughan to reduce costs. Plus Deloitte already has a downtown presence with Commerce Court south (the 5 storey building) in addition to the 3 other buildings they lease space from. they are also currently downsizing and are just under 5000 people at last count. With all the excess commercial office space now available, I hope this project gets postponed till the market can bare it. Don't want another crash the likes of which postponed BA for almost 2 decades.

 

[wyliepoon]

I guess I have made a big mistake with the height of the model. I must have read the presentation PDF wrong, and a bit too anxious to see a 1000-footer on the skyline.

I have deleted the renderings. Will rescale the model and make new renderings later.

 

[isaidso]

I guess I have made a big mistake with the height of the model. I must have read the presentation PDF wrong, and a bit too anxious to see a 1000-footer on the skyline.

I have deleted the renderings. Will rescale the model and make new renderings later.

The proportion was wrong, but I have to admit to enjoying the render you produced. It really did show how a significantly taller building would do wonders for counter balancing the CN Tower.

It's too bad this thing isn't 350-400 metres.

 

[syn]

I really like the design, but I can't see that making it through to the building stage. If they ever go ahead with the project, the design will likely be dumbed down a lot. It's unfortunate, but these preliminary renderings virtually always are.