Toronto/Chicago comparisons

[GenerationW]

How could you say Toronto is better right now. It's not. Our downtown is lacking. The City is safe but Edmonton is more dangerous and NYC and Montreal are also safer than chicago, so there goes that argument. Toronto has a lacking sport culture outside the leafs and we fail to stand up for the city when people out west bash it. And the vibrancy on the streets is about the same. You cannot go into any corner of Toronto and feel safe, Markham and Lawrence, Finch/Hwy 27, Jamestown, Parkdale, Oakwood Vaughan, Weston projects, Pape and Danforth not places to be at night at all.

So says the guy who lives in Oakville!

(Pape and Danforth???)

 

[nfitz]

You cannot go into any corner of Toronto and feel safe, Markham and Lawrence, Finch/Hwy 27, Jamestown, Parkdale, Oakwood Vaughan, Weston projects, Pape and Danforth not places to be at night at all.

That's an absolutely untrue and absurd comment.

I don't know how you think your so incredibly qualified to comment on Chicago, when you clearly have so little understanding of Toronto.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I have no idea why Toronto vs Chicago is such a popular topic. I find them quite fundamentally different.

Chicago boasts a lot of impressive attributes, both past and present, but while Toronto is still riding its 50-year wave of growth and prosperity, Chicago has basically been riding a 50-year wave of decline. The long term effect of these opposite dynamics has a definite impact on the psyche of each city. Is what's going on really just the two waving at each other as we pass?

Chicago is the Midwest putting on a big show. But at the end of the day, it's still the Midwest....and it shows.

Toronto has a very subversive side to it, which never tries to hide....because for whatever reason, the more conservative side of the city doesn't make much of a fuss about it. In this sense, I liken Toronto more to a place like Berlin...not Chicago. Not even remotely.

Toronto can go toe-to-toe with Chicago in the things that are great or positive about Chicago without being too badly embarrassed (and even win a few). But where Chicago is bad....Toronto is generally not even in the same league.

It's in the intangibles where the cities become so obviously different.

And by "different", yea...I mean Toronto is preferable.

 

[adma]

I also need to restate adma's confusion above ... apparently the TTC is so terrible, it has some of the highest usage per capita in North America ?

Well, as Yogi Berra would say, nobody uses the TTC--it's too crowded.

 

[Thanos]

This was in the Toronto Star. 85 minuates is abysmal. Hows the quaity of life when you spend almost 3 hours on the damn QEW

That's not a Toronto issue. It's a regional issue. It's not Toronto's responsibility to fix this issue, it's the whole region including Oakville and Toronto that must come together and start working on solving this issue. How is someone driving from Oakville to downtown Toronto helping matters?
And seriously, Pape & Danforth is dangerous? You really do not know what you're talking about.

 

[Red October]

Toronto have many nice things, but the TTC is definitely not one of them. It is definitely the WORST public transit I have seen in a major city for the following reasons:

1) the subway lines is only sufficient for a city less than half of its size. What's necessary? look at Chicago. (no, please don't use the "ours are cleaner and more accessible" argument, it is a pathetic defense)
2) its technology is sadly outdated. tokens? paper transfers? scratchable passes? Any city would have a automatic fare system nowadays but we are still talking about it, since 2006, as if it is some sort of cutting edge technology.
3) services are simply horrible. numerous scandals which exist nowhere else thanks to our great union. I don't see anywhere else where ticket collectors with no skills at all make $70K a year yet still have the audacity to strike, do you? They should feel lucky to find a street sweeping job offering 20K a year with no benefits at all (trust me, it would be easy to find people willing to do the job for 20k but sadly they don't get a chance to compete).
4) most expensive in North America, and indeed more expensive than Paris, London, Rome and Berlin. On the ground of what? Even Vancouver allows you to transfer in any direction within 2 hours, which means you have make a return trip with one fare, but TTC won't let you use it if you board on a station 400 meters away. And if you compare the discounts offered to seniors/students, the TTC looks extremely stingy and mean (10% vs 50% off in many other cities)
5) extremely slow planning. The city seems to have no vision about public transit at all. Nothing got build since the pathetic 4 station Sheppard east years ago. planners seem more interesting in bickering about ever changing plans than do anything real.


There is no slightest exaggeration when someone says "Toronto has the worst rapid transit in North America".

I'll do this one at a time.

1. The Toronto subway system needs to be bigger, I agree, but we still have one of the most extensive and most used public transit systems in North America. We had the opportunity to expand our subway system in the 80's and 90's, and even started on it, but you can thank Mike Harris for it not being completed. Seriously, he filled in already dug subway tunnels to "save money". WTF?

2. I like the tokens, it's like our streetcars, provides character. Why do sporting events still use paper tickets? Why do we still use coins for currency? Besides the TTC is moving more towards what you're suggesting (I don't know if the TTC uses Presto, could somebody inform me on that?)

3. You've obviously never been to or read about Montreal.

4. Can't argue with this one, it annoys me.

5. The city DID have vision and planning for public transit. That was killed when Bob & Doug were elected by the very people Miller's plan was serving. Blame them.

Yes, it is an extreme exaggeration and completely false. Travel and get your head out of your ass.

I agree with you about a few things, kkgg7, but this is not one of them.

 

[Red October]

I would like to see more support for all of Toronto's teams, not just the Leafs. Consistent high attendance for even the Argos, and I am an NFL fan. Toronto claims for example, that it wants the NFL, and then does not sell out the games. Blue Jays attendance is bad. it was as low as 10,000 earlier this year. Raptors get their sellouts.

Not being awful for years and years would help.

I always say this, Toronto sports fans are the most tortured in all of sports. More so than even Ohio sports fans, Buffalo sports fans, etc etc.
Our last Big 4 team to make the playoffs was the Raptors in 2006-2007(?), and didn't go anywhere. Our last big 4 sports team to win a championship was the Jays back in 1993, and they haven't made the playoffs since (yes I know they are in an impossible division). The Argos last won in 2004, were terrible for years, showed promise last season, and then were absolutely awful this year. If they want better attendance, GET BETTER.

Frankly, Toronto is one of the best sports cities in North America, and by far the greatest one in Canada. Who is the only big Canadian city not to have a team fold? That's right. Despite being terrible, these teams survive because Toronto sports fans have an undying loyalty. Do you think any team in the States (other than the Yanks, Cubs and Red Sox) would still have attendance as good as the Jays if they'd been as terrible for years? What about in hockey? No chance. Even the Habs has dwindling numbers when they were terrible.

Where are the Grizzlies and Expos?

Toronto is very underrated when it comes to sports culture. We have the Hockey Hall of Fame, the only surviving Original Six arena (and that includes the damn Montreal Forum), the stadium with the first retractable roof in the world, that is still impressive over 20 years later. Like I said, underrated.

/rant that I've done about 500 times.

 

[Ladies Mile]

I have no idea why Toronto vs Chicago is such a popular topic. I find them quite fundamentally different.

Chicago boasts a lot of impressive attributes, both past and present, but while Toronto is still riding its 50-year wave of growth and prosperity, Chicago has basically been riding a 50-year wave of decline. The long term effect of these opposite dynamics has a definite impact on the psyche of each city. Is what's going on really just the two waving at each other as we pass?

Chicago is the Midwest putting on a big show. But at the end of the day, it's still the Midwest....and it shows.

Toronto has a very subversive side to it, which never tries to hide....because for whatever reason, the more conservative side of the city doesn't make much of a fuss about it. In this sense, I liken Toronto more to a place like Berlin...not Chicago. Not even remotely.

Toronto can go toe-to-toe with Chicago in the things that are great or positive about Chicago without being too badly embarrassed (and even win a few). But where Chicago is bad....Toronto is generally not even in the same league.

It's in the intangibles where the cities become so obviously different.

And by "different", yea...I mean Toronto is preferable.

I have been learning over the past few years why our American cousins find Torontonians insufferably smug.

If Chicago has been in decline for the past 50 years, please tell me where all those amazing mid-century through contemporary buildings, parks and art works have been coming from. Maybe this is some sort of Beezarro-world decay where things improve as they get worse?

The Midwest "put on a show" by pretty much inventing the entire catalog of North American modern architecture. There aren't three architects in New York's history that did half as much, let alone Toronto. And let's not forget the blues, while we're at it.

I prefer Toronto for quality of life reasons and wouldn't live in Chicago if you paid me, but writing off the Midwest as a hicksville when it is arguably the most creative place in the US is exactly the sort of thing a hick would do.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So says the guy who lives in Oakville!

(Pape and Danforth???)

......

That's an absolutely untrue and absurd comment.

I don't know how you think your so incredibly qualified to comment on Chicago, when you clearly have so little understanding of Toronto.

I don't how you think everything is roses in Toronto, where you clearlydecided to cherry pick my last comments on purpose. I was born in Rexdale so I think I know a hell of a lot more about hoods that you do.

That's not a Toronto issue. It's a regional issue. It's not Toronto's responsibility to fix this issue, it's the whole region including Oakville and Toronto that must come together and start working on solving this issue. How is someone driving from Oakville to downtown Toronto helping matters?
And seriously, Pape & Danforth is dangerous? You really do not know what you're talking about.

When I was a kid Pape and Danforth was not all that. And yes it's a regional issue. But Toronto has not been leading at all.

Not being awful for years and years would help.

I always say this, Toronto sports fans are the most tortured in all of sports. More so than even Ohio sports fans, Buffalo sports fans, etc etc.
Our last Big 4 team to make the playoffs was the Raptors in 2006-2007(?), and didn't go anywhere. Our last big 4 sports team to win a championship was the Jays back in 1993, and they haven't made the playoffs since (yes I know they are in an impossible division). The Argos last won in 2004, were terrible for years, showed promise last season, and then were absolutely awful this year. If they want better attendance, GET BETTER.

Frankly, Toronto is one of the best sports cities in North America, and by far the greatest one in Canada. Who is the only big Canadian city not to have a team fold? That's right. Despite being terrible, these teams survive because Toronto sports fans have an undying loyalty. Do you think any team in the States (other than the Yanks, Cubs and Red Sox) would still have attendance as good as the Jays if they'd been as terrible for years? What about in hockey? No chance. Even the Habs has dwindling numbers when they were terrible.

Where are the Grizzlies and Expos?

Toronto is very underrated when it comes to sports culture. We have the Hockey Hall of Fame, the only surviving Original Six arena (and that includes the damn Montreal Forum), the stadium with the first retractable roof in the world, that is still impressive over 20 years later. Like I said, underrated.

/rant that I've done about 500 times.

1) I already said the Leafs were good.
2) The Cubs have not won the series in 100 years. I want to see who drew better at the end of the season.
3) I only brought up the Argos for comparison sake. They are not big four. Almost eveyone I know likes the NFL. Myself, I have been a NY Giants fan since 1996. (Dan Campbell baby!) My problem is all these people wanted the NFL here yet the Bills games didn't sellout at all. People say it would be different if we got our own team but where and the cost is too much right now, even LA struggling to get a stadium built.
4) Perhaps I should Torotno more credit, but Jays attendance needs to be higher, end of storyu

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I have been learning over the past few years why our American cousins find Torontonians insufferably smug.

If Chicago has been in decline for the past 50 years, please tell me where all those amazing mid-century through contemporary buildings, parks and art works have been coming from. Maybe this is some sort of Beezarro-world decay where things improve as they get worse?

The Midwest "put on a show" by pretty much inventing the entire catalog of North American modern architecture. There aren't three architects in New York's history that did half as much, let alone Toronto. And let's not forget the blues, while we're at it.

I prefer Toronto for quality of life reasons and wouldn't live in Chicago if you paid me, but writing off the Midwest as a hicksville when it is arguably the most creative place in the US is exactly the sort of thing a hick would do.

Because as witnessed by this thread, Torontonians would rater make excuses and and rely on weak points(oh our quality of life, "vibrancy", where New York crushes Toronto) that admit this city has a hell of a lot of problems. Vancouvcer has expanded their transit system, and we have not. One example.

 

[avenirv]

Chicago is a CITY not afraid to stand Manhattan (that doesn't mean is on top of it). Chicago has really world class stuff, you feel the wealth. Chicago has so much street art stuff. and look at the buildings, you feel history, even the new ones have character.
What is Chicago's contribution to architecture versus Toronto's ? What about museums ?
And again, against the Canadian definition of being more human society, in Chicago you can go to the airports without using a taxicab or spending 1.5 h on TTC lines. They have subways/trains really working.
And something about Chicagoland: their trains work all day, not only 3 in the morning coming into downtown and 3 in the afternoon/evening leaving downtown.
Toronto is a provincial town.

 

[Thanos]

When I was a kid Pape and Danforth was not all that. And yes it's a regional issue. But Toronto has not been leading at all.

When was this? When i was kid in Montreal, Ste-Catherine & Peel was not a corner where anyone wanted to hang out, in fact non of Ste-Catherine was. Talking about issues a street had 20 years ago and completely neglect to see how it has transformed during that time is ridiculous. When was Pape & Danforth dangerous? I'm really curious because i'm not originally from here but spend allot of time there.

2) The Cubs have not won the series in 100 years. I want to see who drew better at the end of the season.

Why on earth would you compare the Cubs, who are Chicago's team in the same way the Leafs are Toronto's team, to the Jays? I could easily switch this around and say Chicago doesn't have a sports culture because when the Hawks sucked attendance was a disgrace.

Because as witnessed by this thread, Torontonians would rater make excuses and and rely on weak points(oh our quality of life, "vibrancy", where New York crushes Toronto) that admit this city has a hell of a lot of problems. Vancouvcer has expanded their transit system, and we have not. One example.

So you complain that Torontonians don't stand up for their city and then you say we're clueless for standing up for our city. Which one is it?

 

[Ladies Mile]

Chicago is a CITY not afraid to stand Manhattan (that doesn't mean is on top of it). Chicago has really world class stuff, you feel the wealth. Chicago has so much street art stuff. and look at the buildings, you feel history, even the new ones have character.
What is Chicago's contribution to architecture versus Toronto's ? What about museums ?
And again, against the Canadian definition of being more human society, in Chicago you can go to the airports without using a taxicab or spending 1.5 h on TTC lines. They have subways/trains really working.
And something about Chicagoland: their trains work all day, not only 3 in the morning coming into downtown and 3 in the afternoon/evening leaving downtown.
Toronto is a provincial town.

On the other hand...

 

[nfitz]

I was born in Rexdale so I think I know a hell of a lot more about hoods that you do.

And yet you make completely untrue and absurd statements like "You cannot go into any corner of Toronto and feel safe". How do you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously with comments like that?

If that's what you believe, you clearly have little understanding of the city.

 

[Tewder]

I have been learning over the past few years why our American cousins find Torontonians insufferably smug.

... and Americans aren't? Parisians?? The fact is that Torontonians aren't 'smug' enough, generally speaking. Toronto needs to believe in itself before others will, needs a little hubris... if you value the sort of 'grandeur' you talk about, at least.

The Midwest "put on a show" by pretty much inventing the entire catalog of North American modern architecture. There aren't three architects in New York's history that did half as much, let alone Toronto.

Chicago had a fire and had lots of wealth, and the powers-that-be decided it needed to do something to compete with the east and west coasts. I don't know that we should consider this an organic reflection of a pervasive creative spirit there, and in that sense Freshcutgrass has a point...

... and to be honest its steak houses and blues joints do feel a bit 'quaint' today.

I prefer Toronto for quality of life reasons and wouldn't live in Chicago if you paid me, but writing off the Midwest as a hicksville when it is arguably the most creative place in the US is exactly the sort of thing a hick would do.

Chicago knocks your socks off in a way that Toronto simply can't but when you scratch a little deeper you may in fact find that Toronto comes out on top when it comes to many urban qualities. If the city could get it's shite together, address some of its issues, improve its transit, and reach a little higher in terms of design, architecture and planning we might not be having this discussion!