Toronto Chelsea Green (was 33 Gerrard) | 297.25m | 90s | Great Eagle | a—A

I am not sure I want to get into a debate with you, Skeezix... I think it's intuitively obvious that a street with 10 houses on it, where 10 families live, is less urban than the same street with denser built form, where 100 families live...

That's not "intuitively obvious" at all. Not even remotely. You're conflating urbanity and density. Moreover, while the latter is a characteristic of the former, you're going so far as to suggest the more of the latter gives you more of the former, which is not at all a given, and suggesting that there is some sort of magic density threshold for urbanity, which there is not.

There is so much more to urbanity than simply population per hectare.
 
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No, but low density neighbourhoods are inefficient to service (think transit), and it does restrict the natural growth outward from the core.

Neither of those points, especially the latter one, is a given. But I was really just responding to the point that our inner city neighbourhoods are "anti-urban", which is hogwash.
 
Like I said, I agree that low-rise neighbourhoods are among Toronto's most beautiful areas and do contribute to a unique urban character, but that doesn't mean that we should be constricted by them.

I would agree with you wholeheartedly. I don't think we are in danger of being constricted by any one type of built form though, do you? Look at City Place, Southcore, Liberty Village, the Waterfront etc., etc. These areas are all developing as high rise form. Yonge Street is reaching ever higher as are many others. Mid-rise in-fill is also springing up everywhere. The challenge is to find the right balance. In some cases we should build higher and more dense.... and as others have said, we need fine grain development choices. I just don't happen to feel it's a crime against urbanity that we have some lovely and uniquely Toronto low-rise forms of urbanism in central Toronto. In broad strokes I see them as assets not liabilities.
 
As others have said, we need to find a balance between preservation and progress. If Toronto is to grow sustainably, there are going to have to be some houses - probably even some beautiful old victorians - torn down. I think that our focus should lie in identifying that which deserves to be saved, whether individual buildings of architectural merit or entire neighbourhoods, and then restricting zoning in those places (or compiling comprehensive heritage lists) and loosening it in other places to allow for more natural growth. The key to this is to recognize that not every victorian neighbourhood in the old city is going to be (or, in my opinion, should be) saved.
I agree that just because a building is old or designated as heritage doesn't necessarily mean it is worth preserving. However, that definitely isn't the prevailing sentiment -- which is the challenge.

I look at a street like Bathurst between Bloor and Dundas and can't help but think that it hasn't evolved to match its context, which is a busy main thoroughfare . I feel like parts of it could definitely be razed and go mid-rise but then it also backs on to Markham st and I can't imagine that ever going down without strong opposition.

I think NIMBYism coupled with politics are what's holding back the city from this sort of more sustainable growth.

Couldn't one argue that there really wouldn't be a need or market for a massive development such as 33 Gerrard st if we had more accommodations throughout the core... Yet, it seems to me that when a more reasonable development is proposed in the core it is faced with opposition and obstacles.
 
Neither of those points, especially the latter one, is a given.

I'd argue that low density, is by definition, difficult to serve by transit.

In fact, it only becomes cost-effective to run buses in streets with densities greater than can be achieved by single-detached housing.
 
I'd argue that the state of disrepair is about a lack of admiration. Most of those landlords are Ksun-like individuals that see no value in the existing built form. Many are worse in not seeing any value in any built form.

When did I say there is "no value" in such built from?

I'm just arguing that there's a fundamental difference of paradigm between Ksun's version of 'raise it all because it's not as good as somewhere else'

Again thank you for putting words in my mouth. That must have made you feel smarter.
 
I'd argue that low density, is by definition, difficult to serve by transit.

In fact, it only becomes cost-effective to run buses in streets with densities greater than can be achieved by single-detached housing.

Hardly. Most definitely not "by definition". Most of these neighbourhoods were built to be served by transit.
 
I find this discussion very interesting, and it's something I've been thinking about for quite some time. I do think that there is something special about Toronto's low-rise neighbourhoods (I live in one of them myself), but I also agree with others that there is room for growth and change in at least some of these neighbourhoods.

I also take issue with the accusation that gets thrown around (not specifically calling you out Tewder, it seems to be a common argument) that by desiring to see certain types of growth in Toronto, people are actively wishing to be like another city, at the expense of what makes Toronto what it is. Like I said, I agree that low-rise neighbourhoods are among Toronto's most beautiful areas and do contribute to a unique urban character, but that doesn't mean that we should be constricted by them. And yes, there are things that Paris, Barcelona, New York, etc. do well that would be nice to see in Toronto, and I think it is possible to learn those lessons without becoming "some second-rate version of somewhere else." It is important to remember that those cities became what they are over by going through their own periods of growth and change. New York today hardly resembles the city as it was in the late 19th century, when it was predominantly low and mid-rise (pre-high-rise boom). The difference is even more dramatic the further back you go. I'm sure that if you had asked a New Yorker in 1850 to describe the character of his/her city, it would be very different from the answer someone might give today, and thats ok. In Toronto, we shouldn't necessarily be stuck in a certain mould just because we hit our boom 100+ years later.

Then again, perhaps we should recognize the value in low-rise neighbourhoods that function successfully today, whether they be higher-income enclaves or lower-income subdivided houses. There is always room for improvement, but if it ain't broke (for the most part), don't fix it.

As others have said, we need to find a balance between preservation and progress. If Toronto is to grow sustainably, there are going to have to be some houses - probably even some beautiful old victorians - torn down. I think that our focus should lie in identifying that which deserves to be saved, whether individual buildings of architectural merit or entire neighbourhoods, and then restricting zoning in those places (or compiling comprehensive heritage lists) and loosening it in other places to allow for more natural growth. The key to this is to recognize that not every victorian neighbourhood in the old city is going to be (or, in my opinion, should be) saved.

Also, as a note, and as others have pointed out, there are certainly ways to increase density incrementally and while keeping a low-rise built form. Simply allowing smaller multi-unit buildings to be built on some of our smaller streets may be a good way to do this.

Great comments.
I am very sick of this "let Toronto be Toronto" kind of argument. It sounds nice and sweet but in fact means absolutely nothing and is probably more detrimental than constructive. Toronto is not an unchanging concept. And Toronto today is definitely not the same one in the 1990s. So what does it mean let Toronto be just Toronto? Other cities are building subways and making streets more pedestrian friendly, does that mean if we do the same, we are aspiring to be a second rate other city? What's wrong with learning from the best? How can we become another Barcelona or Paris? We can't even if we do everything toward that goal.

I am not proposing to raze all low rise neighbourhoods, as someone wrongly suggested (just to make me sound stupid), but rather, many of Toronto's low rise neighbourhoods are not that special (let's not pretend all of them are of historical value) and should give way to more development and providing higher density housing. We can't deny the fact that the build form along Bathurst or Danforth is pretty stupid and is largely a waste of central land space, and there is nothing so appealing about them either. And there are way more nondescript boring two stories in Leslieville than those with characters. What's wrong with razing them and build high density housing? Toronto is growing and do we want all new incomers settle in Vaughan and New Market just for the sake of preserving those houses? Without providing more efficient housing (rather than single family homes, which means families of 4 taking a large chunk of land), how do we curb sprawl? Without the density, how is it possible to improve transit? We are gonna keep extending the YUS line indefinitely toward the north pole?

But I fail to see the low rise neighbourhoods give Toronto "character". Which city in North America doesn't have those? Saskatoon has those. A suburb in Chicago has those. They don't make Toronto "special" by any means.
 
Which neighbourhoods? Many of our inner city neighbourhoods are semi-detached housing. Considerably denser than single-detached.

I'm not the one referring to single-detached housing. You are. I am responding to the questionable assumptions that our inner city neighbourhoods are anti-urban, that low density neighbourhoods can't sustain transit, or that they restrict the growth of the core. I never even used the words "single-detached".

I think this discussion of whether our stable, low-density inner city neighbourhoods should be sacrosanct or not is an interesting one, but I am simply questioning some of the assumptions people here are making.
 
I don't think we are in danger of being constricted by any one type of built form though, do you? Look at City Place, Southcore, Liberty Village, the Waterfront etc., etc. These areas are all developing as high rise form. Yonge Street is reaching ever higher as are many others. Mid-rise in-fill is also springing up everywhere. The challenge is to find the right balance.

I agree that the challenge is to find the right balance, but I think where we may disagree is on what that balance should look like. Currently, even with the variety of built forms found across the city (and this variety is only increasing), I would describe Toronto as being primarily characterized by low-rise residential. As I said, I don't think there is anything wrong with low-rise, however I do think that we should be open to a possible shift away from this kind of built form as the overwhelming norm. It seems to me that low-rise neighbourhoods function best when they are surrounded by, or in close proximity to, areas of higher density. Many neighbourhoods in Toronto fit this description. However, there are also many places - the majority of the city I think - that are dominated by low-rise to such an extent that it kills the neighbourhood.

I live in the beaches, and even though I love it, I can still see that there isn't really all that much to do around here once you get off of queen street. I think the neighbourhood, and many others, would be better off if they allowed some change to take place. Currently, any change is met with a huge amount of resistance. Now, it is also true that the small-town atmosphere and built form of the beaches is one of its assets, so a middle ground needs to be found. Then again, 90% of east york has similar or lower density...I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. There will inevitably be something lost as change happens. I still feel that it is necessary and good.
 
Which neighbourhoods? Many of our inner city neighbourhoods are semi-detached housing. Considerably denser than single-detached.

Two story semis are only slightly better than detached. They are still low density and are not exactly friendly to high capacity transit. The math is actually quite simple. They are two story high, which puts a cap on possible density no matter how you describe it. It will be a lot less dense than 6-10s apartment rows no matter how many suites they are in them.
 
I live in the beaches, and even though I love it, I can still see that there isn't really all that much to do around here once you get off of queen street. I think the neighbourhood, and many others, would be better off if they allowed some change to take place. Currently, any change is met with a huge amount of resistance. Now, it is also true that the small-town atmosphere and built form of the beaches is one of its assets, so a middle ground needs to be found. Then again, 90% of east york has similar or lower density...I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. There will inevitably be something lost as change happens. I still feel that it is necessary and good.

and that's the problem. And most of our inner city neighbourhoods function like the beaches - low density with one single retail street. East York is another excellent example - it is largely boring. If put in Madrid or Berlin, a place like East York will be vibrant like St Lawrence Market, but instead being so close to the core it is largely half dead most of the time. Why? because density is to low to support that kind of vibrancy urban life.

yet people say, "we love our two story houses!".
 
I live in the beaches, and even though I love it, I can still see that there isn't really all that much to do around here once you get off of queen street. I think the neighbourhood, and many others, would be better off if they allowed some change to take place. Currently, any change is met with a huge amount of resistance. Now, it is also true that the small-town atmosphere and built form of the beaches is one of its assets, so a middle ground needs to be found. Then again, 90% of east york has similar or lower density...I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. There will inevitably be something lost as change happens. I still feel that it is necessary and good.

I think we have a fundamental tension here - we attach a huge amount of romance to that notion of small town/village life being a superior way to live even though we are no longer anything like it.

And I wouldn't fixate just on the loss - but of the potential to gain as well (and if handled right, maybe more gain than loss?)

AoD
 
Two story semis are only slightly better than detached. They are still low density and are not exactly friendly to high capacity transit. The math is actually quite simple. They are two story high, which puts a cap on possible density no matter how you describe it. It will be a lot less dense than 6-10s apartment rows no matter how many suites they are in them.

And don't forget of demographics as well - it is far more likely for the residents to be childless - so the same semi housing 4 before is now housing only two and a dog.

AoD
 

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