Toronto/Boston comparisons

[Tewder]

I used to live in New York and was actually surprised how many of my friends there liked the city -being from Toronto you often get surprised by anyone liking it -and it wasn't because Toronto felt like a home away from home but because it felt different and interesting to them. Sometimes I wish we in Toronto and Canada could appreciate the same view

... as with most places Canada is easier to love and appreciate from without than from within.

The criticisms Toronto receives from the ROC I think have less to do with it being too much like "an American city" or trying too hard to be this "city" and more to do with it being rather unique and unfamiliar to to other Canadians. No one feels a need to compare Montreal to other cities (well except maybe me to Boston) but it's because it's instantly recognizable as a Canadian city and feels instantly familiar. Toronto feels foreign and it's just not its ethnic make-up that makes it feel this way. It doesn't feel connected to the country in the same way Montreal, Halifax or Vancouver etc. do.

You cannot overlook the fact that at heart Canada is an enormously regional place and there is very little that thinly unites us from one end of our huge land mass to the other... and perhaps not surprisingly one of the few things that hosers do share is a core provincialism, and even in the larger cities, as witnessed by your comments regarding Montreal. In some ways I suspect that if this scenario is changing anywhere in Canada at all it is likely in Toronto which in the end only serves to wedge it apart all the more as it starts to feel less and less 'Canadian' in this sense, taking its place on a wider international stage.
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[kool maudit]

the "growing beyond canada" thing is an old component of the inter-canadian debate. it's a known trope.

 

[OttoSchloss]

Canada isn't exceptional in its regionalism. The U.S. is incredibly regional, and Europe well...

I don't know what makes Canada different in this regard but we are. Our governments are suspicious of cities and frankly even city dwellers are. Europeans invest heavily in their urban areas, the U.S. not so much but it's an incredibly rich nation so the federal or state involvement or lack there of is usually made up some other way (i.e. NYC income tax).

Despite being overwhelmingly urban, we have debates about long gun registries as if they actually mean anything to most of us. And the rural vote is coveted.

Yeah I agree we're terribly provincial sometimes (most times) and not necessarily a nation that strives for anything other than the middle.

It's changing to a degree and while you may need to leave Canada to become a big name in film or t.v. (albeit there are exceptions) at least in music or art you can kinda stick around (speaking of English Canada here re: t.v & film).

 

[freshcutgrass]

Canada isn't exceptional in its regionalism. The U.S. is incredibly regional, and Europe well...

I don't know what makes Canada different in this regard but we are.

Regionalism in Canada is a mile wide...and an inch deep.

The USA is very highly polarized, with diabolically opposed sides on so many issues.

Canadian regionalism focuses on the vast geographical, population and economic disparities between regions. This is why ROC resents Toronto, and it's easy to see why.

But when it comes to the big issues, most Canadians, regardless of region, fall within a middle road. Extreme opposites make up a much smaller percentage. Look at our three main political parties...they run the gamut of conservative-liberal-socialist, but in reality they don't differ on big issues as much as it would appear. What we consider a right-wing conservative would probably be considered a "communist" by a large part of the USA. he he

 

[Tewder]

Canada isn't exceptional in its regionalism. The U.S. is incredibly regional, and Europe well...

Europe isn't a nation though... and as I mentioned in my earlier post, not only are we enormously regional but there is very little that thinly unites our regionalism. This is not the case in the USA. It is a 'melting pot' for a reason (to offset regionalism and create unity).

Yeah I agree we're terribly provincial sometimes (most times) and not necessarily a nation that strives for anything other than the middle.

It's changing to a degree and while you may need to leave Canada to become a big name in film or t.v. (albeit there are exceptions) at least in music or art you can kinda stick around (speaking of English Canada here re: t.v & film).

Be careful of generalities... it is largely English Canada that compromises itself, in terms of cultural identity. In Quebec they have developed a very serious and respected cultural industry that they have also been successful in exporting (Cirque, Celine etc). Of course there is a strong history of cultural identity there that has diverged with that of the rest of Canada in rejecting Multiculturalism and going so far as to attempt to constitutionally legitimize the whole 'distinct society' thing. The rest of the nation flounders somewhat in comparison.

But when it comes to the big issues, most Canadians, regardless of region, fall within a middle road. Extreme opposites make up a much smaller percentage. Look at our three main political parties...they run the gamut of conservative-liberal-socialist, but in reality they don't differ on big issues as much as it would appear. What we consider a right-wing conservative would probably be considered a "communist" by a large part of the USA. he he

I agree with you that America has become more polarized over the years... but would suggest this trend is also happening in Canada, and if this is less apparent nationally it is way apparant regionally: consider the vitriolic 905/416 divide as being played out under his Fordship.

 

[OttoSchloss]

I meant nations within Europe, Europe was just short form. France, Spain, Britain, Belgium etc. all suffer from the same regional malaise. Maybe the key for many countries the U.S. included, is empire building.

English Canada has also (always) been very successful in its cultural exports, it just tends to get lumped in with the neighbor down south and typically (and this can include Britain) success is defined by how well received you are in the U.S. We don't have a very successful homegrown film and t.v. industry (partly because the lure of Hollywood is irresistible) but we're no slouches in the visual arts, literature and music industries.

 

[freshcutgrass]

English Canada has also (always) been very successful in its cultural exports, it just tends to get lumped in with the neighbor down south and typically (and this can include Britain) success is defined by how well received you are in the U.S. We don't have a very successful homegrown film and t.v. industry (partly because the lure of Hollywood is irresistible) but we're no slouches in the visual arts, literature and music industries.

What people tend to forget, is that there are three elements at play here. There are purely "American" things....there are purely "Canadian" things...and then there are "North American" things. And a lot of Canadians are drawn to the North American things because it tends to be bigger and more successful. It's just that Canada's major contribution to the North American things gets downplayed, and what is a collaboration ends up being considered purely "American", which it really isn't.

Hollywood is a good example of this. Canadians played a big role in the establishment of Hollywood in the beginning, and remain a big player. Since most of "Hollywood" takes place geographically with the USA, it is perceived as purely "American", when it is really a collaborative industry of international scope.

 

[kool maudit]

English Canada has also (always) been very successful in its cultural exports, it just tends to get lumped in with the neighbor down south.

agreed. what most people consider "american culture" was created by us too; we were there from the beginning, at many times to a degree out of proportion to our share of the combined population.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Actually it has always struck me how amazingly homogeneous Canada is culturally from sea to sea for such a vast geographic area. One could almost make an argument that Canada is one of the most culturally homogenous areas of human settlement on the planet.

 

[pman]

Actually it has always struck me how amazingly homogeneous Canada is culturally from sea to sea for such a vast geographic area. One could almost make an argument that Canada is one of the most culturally homogenous areas of human settlement on the planet.

I'm not sure the quebecois would agree with that comment.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I'm not sure the quebecois would agree with that comment.

But it goes deeper than just superficial differences as culture and language.

The USA is, and always was, a nation of fanaticism. They tolerate all sorts of very negative things in the name of fanaticism....enslave the blacks, slaughter the natives, greed, intolerance, high crime, constant war-mongering, religious fanaticism. And this is the basis on which they fanatically claim to be the greatest nation in the history of mankind.

Canada is richly diverse, but we are not fanatical.

 

[Red October]

I'm not sure the quebecois would agree with that comment.

And Western Canada.

 

[Tewder]

Canada is richly diverse, but we are not fanatical.

Indeed, what is the moribund opposite of fanatical?

 

[FAC33]

The USA is, and always was, a nation of fanaticism. They tolerate all sorts of very negative things in the name of fanaticism....enslave the blacks, slaughter the natives, greed, intolerance, high crime, constant war-mongering, religious fanaticism. And this is the basis on which they fanatically claim to be the greatest nation in the history of mankind.
.

Caveat: The US is a nation that tolerates, sometimes even celebrates, fanaticism, usually under the aegis of free speech. And their fanatics are certainly loud. But the vast majority of Americans are not fanatics, nor is the doctrine of American exceptionalism universally held, despite what those who see belief in such a doctrine the true test of patriotism will say.

 

[pman]

But it goes deeper than just superficial differences as culture and language.

The USA is, and always was, a nation of fanaticism. They tolerate all sorts of very negative things in the name of fanaticism....enslave the blacks, slaughter the natives, greed, intolerance, high crime, constant war-mongering, religious fanaticism. And this is the basis on which they fanatically claim to be the greatest nation in the history of mankind.

Canada is richly diverse, but we are not fanatical.

I agree with you Canada is richly diverse rather than culturally homogeneous.