Toronto Bloor Street Revitalization | ?m | ?s | Bloor-Yorkville BIA | architectsAlliance
junctionist
Senior Member
From the cladding on the ROM to the granite on Bloor, a visitor can get the impression that we're a sloppy city with poor attention to detail. It's a hard truth to bear, but we can reverse it.
urbandreamer
recession proof
Vancouver is the Virgo--anal about the details.
Toronto is the Taurus--stubborn slowly plodding along.
Montreal is the Libra--duel identities (French and English), social, and full of beauty and beauties.
Toronto is the Taurus--stubborn slowly plodding along.
Montreal is the Libra--duel identities (French and English), social, and full of beauty and beauties.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
The really shameful part of this is that it's not that we suffer for a lack of money; most of the stuff that brings the project down was cheap stuff and a lack of thought/coordination that ruins the experience of a very expensive project. For example, the cost of ripping up the sidewalk and laying down slabs of black granite and sophisticated planter systems is where the majority of the money went. However all that is compromised when property owners can't even integrate the black granite paving with the foot, or so, of concrete right in front of their building. Likewise, would it have killed the people in charge to spend a little more money to buy non-MTO highway spec street lights? They were replacing the streetlights anyway, why not spend an extra $50k, or so, to buy a more decorative version? This is particularly embarassing since streetlights stick out more than any other feature on the road and are a very prominent and visual aesthetic feature.
taal
Senior Member
I'll be frank, I agree with most of the points here - I don't think this is anything new though, Toronto has always lacked the extermely well manicured streets compared to many smaller and larger cities across the world (I can think of many more then just Montreal and Vancouver, and I don't believe those are really good examples anyway - check out Melbourne). This isn't anything new though, if you're trying to write this off as a *new normal* in Toronto i.e. this is what is acceptable now that's far from the truth.
Now on to the other end of the spectrum - you've picked the worst project to make a good example of this - this project is amazing for what it is - those complaining about lack of extension to buildings edges that's private property - I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these companies were asked if they wanted to participate and many simply said no (yes they're already paying for the rest of the project). I think over time this will change and we will have uniformity throughout.
In terms of the water features, yes those were cut back, it's unfortunate, but all projects face cut backs - this isn't unique to Toronto - the same goes for delays and over spending, while yes there are some valid arguments had that this occurs too frequently in Toronto compared to other cities, but. it does in fact occur in other cities as well, don't fool yourself if you think otherwise.
The ROM? That was a private project for one so it really says little about Toronto, and secondly, as I've stated many times, I absolutely love it the way it is and other do as well (not sure if they're on this forum though) - even with the different shades and all.
If you wanted to make an example, just take a look at Yonge street - that's pretty terrible.
Now on to the other end of the spectrum - you've picked the worst project to make a good example of this - this project is amazing for what it is - those complaining about lack of extension to buildings edges that's private property - I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these companies were asked if they wanted to participate and many simply said no (yes they're already paying for the rest of the project). I think over time this will change and we will have uniformity throughout.
In terms of the water features, yes those were cut back, it's unfortunate, but all projects face cut backs - this isn't unique to Toronto - the same goes for delays and over spending, while yes there are some valid arguments had that this occurs too frequently in Toronto compared to other cities, but. it does in fact occur in other cities as well, don't fool yourself if you think otherwise.
The ROM? That was a private project for one so it really says little about Toronto, and secondly, as I've stated many times, I absolutely love it the way it is and other do as well (not sure if they're on this forum though) - even with the different shades and all.
If you wanted to make an example, just take a look at Yonge street - that's pretty terrible.
Tewder
Senior Member
I agree.
This insanity simply wouldn't happen elsewhere. Other brands of insanity, yes, but this is Toronto's particular brand. There are many ways to encourage reluctant private owners to do their part in a project like this, all kinds of financial incentives that could have been offered. This is exactly what would have happened elsewhere (if not more direct coercion through punitive actions). The fact is though that nobody in Toronto really cares. The end result of mismatched pavers and standard lighting fixtures is perfectly acceptable in a Toronto context which sort of ties this into your original point.
Yes, these things do happen elsewhere to one degree or another. The degree to which it happens in Toronto however is exceptional. Through personal experiences, though admittedly anecdotal, I am always amazed by how slow construction and projects take here than in other places that I have become familiar with, and so I am never entirely surprised that things end up dragging on in time and money and that cut-backs tend to result.
ILuvTO
Active Member
Very well said. Far too often we beat ourselves up over things that we are no better or worse at than other cities. Let's all relax. There's nothing to stop the city and BIA from launching a secondary project to tweek the look of Bloor after some time has passed and everyone has had a chance to digest the intial project.
Tewder
Senior Member
They couldn't get the first one right so why wait for a 'stage 2'? The fact is we should be 'beating ourselves up over this'. This apathy and incompetence is simply embarrassing.
taal
Senior Member
Not without knowing the entire story, which you don't ... who's to say the city / the BIA didn't attempt to approach the various land owners and ask if they would contribute more to get the sidewalk re-done all the way up to their building's frontage (verse their property line) - I agree with you, if this was never asked or thought of there could be a lot of incompetence at play. But if I were to guess this was asked and many businesses simply said no for whatever reason - don't forget, the city only contributed a small portion to this project (20%) or so, it's the BIA footing the rest of the bill and that means the businesses themselves - 20+ million is quite a bit on top of the taxes the property owners surely pay (even when distributed over the .5/1 KM stretch) ... maybe the answer was that money wasn't available currently, either way, it's likely the majority said no - and with this what options did the BIA have ? Forget the project entirely or go on and do the best they can ? I still feel that in time, yes a lot of time, the businesses will redo their portions - when they need redoing.
Yes that was all hypothetical I agree - also, there's a lot of questions, the property owners would surely save if they did the whole strip in one shot (economies of scale in play here) ... but something must have been up.
That's my first point, second point is unlike other projects, again, don't forget the city wasn't responsible for the cash (only a portion of it) - so comparing this to projects in other cities is likely unfair as in many of those circumstances it's likely the city who's done all the work. When we have a look at the QQ we'll get a good idea, will they only do part of the sidewalk - not likely. So bashing the city about this particular project isn't fair.
Again, this all depends on the facts, which we don't have (please enlighten me if you do) ... there are, however, other projects you can feel free to bash the city on ... maybe not so much for the finish project (which many times I think the city does a good job at even with all the complaints on the forum given the budget overspending that occurs) ... yes you heard me, I said *good job at* ... but projects on-going, that have been on-going for decades, that's another story .. points to Yonge street and the like.
Tewder
Senior Member
Nonsense. The outcome is proof positive that everything fell down here and I don't need 'insider' knowledge to understand this as I can see it with my own eyes! I'm touched that you give the city such a free pass, I mean gosh darn they did their bestest right? B.S.!
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Tewder:
How do you propose that the city/BIA make private property owners to upgrade the sidewalk unilaterally? I am truly interested in what you propose, since you are convinced that the inability of the city and BIA to do so amounts to incompetence. Furthermore, I am really, really curious as to how you will react if say the the municipal government decide to unilaterally modify your property (not the ROW) at your cost.
This outcome is proof positive that the municipal government can't arbitarily violate the rights of property owners, for good or ill.
AoD
How do you propose that the city/BIA make private property owners to upgrade the sidewalk unilaterally? I am truly interested in what you propose, since you are convinced that the inability of the city and BIA to do so amounts to incompetence. Furthermore, I am really, really curious as to how you will react if say the the municipal government decide to unilaterally modify your property (not the ROW) at your cost.
This outcome is proof positive that the municipal government can't arbitarily violate the rights of property owners, for good or ill.
AoD
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TrickyRicky
Senior Member
I was just in England where the streetscape standards, despite being chaotic are much higher than here.
But it's not the point about the streetscape standards I want to bring up, its about an interesting distinction the English draw between moaning and complaining. Moaning is complaining to a party that has no influence over the outcome. Complaining is drawing attention to an issue where the other party has influence over the outcome.
Taal brings up a great point regarding the fictitious slide in standards. There is no slide in standards because our standards were so much lower in past decades. Is this an excuse to not push for higher standards? Absolutely not. I think we should appreciate however that a city is an ever evolving process of regeneration and decline. There is no utopian standard to aspire to. Investment in capital improvements and standards of maintainenance are effectively bottomless pits. These can only evolve as the cultural evolves, and as they evolve the law of unintended consequences will start to work it's magic.
But it's not the point about the streetscape standards I want to bring up, its about an interesting distinction the English draw between moaning and complaining. Moaning is complaining to a party that has no influence over the outcome. Complaining is drawing attention to an issue where the other party has influence over the outcome.
Taal brings up a great point regarding the fictitious slide in standards. There is no slide in standards because our standards were so much lower in past decades. Is this an excuse to not push for higher standards? Absolutely not. I think we should appreciate however that a city is an ever evolving process of regeneration and decline. There is no utopian standard to aspire to. Investment in capital improvements and standards of maintainenance are effectively bottomless pits. These can only evolve as the cultural evolves, and as they evolve the law of unintended consequences will start to work it's magic.
Tewder
Senior Member
Really? Is that what happened to those who 'owned' property where Dundas Square now stands? I'm sure many of them would love to hear your interpretation.
Are you suggesting there are no 'incentives' that could have been offered by our benign and helpless City Hall? They had no means at their disposal, whatsoever, at the beginning when this plan was proposed, to leverage the paving of what amounts to a few feet here and there relative to the rest of the project? Really??
taal
Senior Member
They had already *leveraged* 5 million dollars of tax payers money ... so it's not as if nothing was done, they're also footing the bill for all the cost overruns last time I checked - maybe that's all there was in their budjet.
Again, you just don't know!
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Yes, and just how often is the power of expropriation invoked for strictly aesthetic urban improvements? Using one exceptional example of wholesale urban redevelopment and equate it to the norm as to how business is/should be done is intellectual dishonesty at its finest.
And just how did you know that there hasn't been any attempt to persuade private owners to pony up, above and beyond funding committed by the BIA, which is supported by the very owners? What of the financial costs it would entail? I highly doubt that most property owners will be happy with any scheme unless the City pony up the full cost. Surely as someone with an expressed interest in the finances of the city that this additional (and not insubstantial) sum would have to be justified to all? Beyond that, what of the responsibility of property owners? Why lay the blame on the city when the private realm is the responsibility of said owners? What of private responsibility?
I've noticed you've also conveniently neglected to address the scenario I've put forward. But of course, it is easy to suggest someone should do all they can when they are not the ones with a personal sake in it. Would you be so sanguine when you are the one who is directly impacted?
AoD
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