Toronto 898 Broadview Avenue | 20.31m | 6s | REVE DVMT | QBS Architects Inc

AlbertC

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898 BROADVIEW AVE


To construct a new six-storey semi-detached apartment building (containing ten dwelling units) with a ground floor rear integral garage accessed from the abutting laneway (for one parking space), a front basement window well, a front sixth storey balcony, rear fourth and fifth storey balconies, and a rear sixth storey rooftop terrace (green roof outdoor amenity area). The north portion of the front of the building will be cantilevered over the ground floor front entry.



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I vote no.

Accessibility, I simply don't want to see buildings built with 1 elevator. Aside from breakdowns, and maintenance these do need to comprehensively refurbished every 20 years and replaced every 40. During such a period, the people on the sixth floor would have no elevator for up to six months.

On top of which even if an elevator is down for a day, you could trap someone with a mobility aid.

The proposal as conceived should be illegal.,

***

That to one side, it's ugly beyond words.

If the locals want to NIMBY this one, I just might whisper to them how to blow it out of the water. I could see a Human Right complaint, a divisional court charter challenge........... I really think we need to nix dumb ideas like this completely. They are toxic in their disregard for the elderly and the disabled and the sheer ugliness is just giving the finger to the neighbours.
 
It is great that we are getting to a stage where developers are figuring out the finances on these. Encouraging! I expect to see these start popping up in the West End along Landsdowne soon.
 
It is great that we are getting to a stage where developers are figuring out the finances on these. Encouraging! I expect to see these start popping up in the West End along Landsdowne soon.

So you're indifferent to all the burdens you would impose on those with mobility challenges, or even those that are able when an elevator is out of service?
 
I vote no.

Accessibility, I simply don't want to see buildings built with 1 elevator. Aside from breakdowns, and maintenance these do need to comprehensively refurbished every 20 years and replaced every 40. During such a period, the people on the sixth floor would have no elevator for up to six months.

On top of which even if an elevator is down for a day, you could trap someone with a mobility aid.

The proposal as conceived should be illegal.,

***

That to one side, it's ugly beyond words.

If the locals want to NIMBY this one, I just might whisper to them how to blow it out of the water. I could see a Human Right complaint, a divisional court charter challenge........... I really think we need to nix dumb ideas like this completely. They are toxic in their disregard for the elderly and the disabled and the sheer ugliness is just giving the finger to the neighbours.
Who cares what you want, who are you?
 
Who cares what you want, who are you?

1) A lot of people, including the posters here have given me the highest reaction score of any UT member; and a lot of people in gov't and the industry who regularly solicit my opinions, and sometimes pay for that too.

Who are you again?

2) It's not about 'what I think', beyond any forum member sharing an opinion, it's about people's rights not to be trapped in an apartment or trapped out of one, because the only elevator is out of service. That you don't care about your fellow citizen is clear enough; some of us are kinder.
 
Lol ohhh the highest score on UT wow, you must be proud.

Ive built 1000's of units, including many barrier free ones. A few missing middle projects without an elevator aren't going to move the needle one way or the other.

We shouldn't be designing based on the lowest common denominator..
 
Lol ohhh the highest score on UT wow, you must be proud.

I don't know that I'm 'proud' of it, it was merely an answer to your inflammatory and insulting inquiry. Nothing more or less.

Ive built 1000's of units, including many barrier free ones. A few missing middle projects without an elevator aren't going to move the needle one way or the other.

Except to the people who you trap inside or outside their units. Ya, those people. I get it, you're not disabled, you don't know anyone who is and you don't care about them. So be it, but try tweeting that view out under your real name and see if you ever build another unit in Ontario, good luck to you.

We shouldn't be designing based on the lowest common denominator..

You just called the disabled 'the lowest common denominator'?

Ok then; off to 'ignore' go you.

****

For the record, I don't think every unit has to be accessible, but once you get to six storeys, and choose to include an elevator, admitting the burden to even able-bodied folk of climbing six flights of stairs, you need to include 2 elevators, so as to mitigate the risk of breakdown.

Accessibility is not just people in wheelchairs, nor is it merely residents, it's residents parents, family, coworkers, and other guests.

It's also people who break a leg; it's also people who move-in able bodied and find that changes in the future.
 
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So you're indifferent to all the burdens you would impose on those with mobility challenges, or even those that are able when an elevator is out of service?

Sorry, but this is very accusatory in tone... You've called me on it, so I will for you too, you aren't being reasonable in your initial post. You walked it back a bit, but I already wrote this so... Every building should offer step free accessible units yes, including here, but if the possibility of an elevator failure meaning it should be illegal... you are better off putting taunting fines/repercussions on broken down elevators to landlords, than advocating for restrictions on the housing in the first place.

Hypothetically, I ask, why not enforce this onto single family homes and townhomes too? Single storey houses are very rare, and many include accessibility barriers anyways themselves (requiring chair lifts at the front door stairs for example). Home ownership shouldn't have a barrier of additional renovation costs to those who need it that is inherently ableism costs aside (and i'm saying this as someone who thinks such zoning should be abolished to begin with!) Nobody could ever build them in that senario, it's cost prohibitive and you probably would answer that the same. It's to say, I personally would rather see something built, then nothing, as it adds an elevators and accessible units to a property with none currently. If the something that is built needs an additional elevator, then advocate for one. The developer should be more than capable of buying out one additional property if they need to go bigger to make the numbers work.

If you want there to be large body of accessible units for those who need them, enough that it's something one wouldn't even have to worry about when checking listings, then maybe you are after the wrong target.. It's only very recent housing stock that will have accessibility features built in, which why in part pushing for more is a benefit.

Apartments are the only widely available option for people, especially since most are low income! If there was a larger focus on low-rise apartment properties, then elevator costs are brought down the chain as multiple people pay for one, so there could be two, there can be redundancy. That's not even to say this building deserves defense from an accessibility perspective, but fixing the rules doesn't mean additional restrictions, and we're all aware here that restrictive zoning was born out of racism, classism and ableism. I think you'd agree that those who look to places like Japan for an answer (old population, many elevators) aren't seeing the full picture, but at the same time, many many elders live there, and many places around the world lucky enough to have access to modern amenities don't suffer in the way you paint it (even though some definently could benefit from better!). I'd avoid having an instinctive reaction to enact MORE restraints. My point is... That's what causes harm to communities, action with vague direction. It sounds good in theory, but in practice the community ends up worse off. This needs a larger discussion, not a dismissive one, and you know better than many that the city planning process is one that is about discussion, application by application.

We shouldn't be designing based on the lowest common denominator..

I would watch your phrasing, this implies you look at them as lesser, even if that isn't what you meant. If that is what you meant, oof. yikers.

It's also people who break a leg; it's also people who move-in able bodied and find that changes in the future.

As my S/O lived the last year with this struggle due to a hazardous workplace incident, this is true. He was depressed being inside a lot, not being able to move. The house we rent in is elevated considerably from ground level, but that wasn't even the issue. The largest barrier for him was still the rest of the world. The TTC (even with elevators.), The Eaton Centre (the elevator layouts are bafflingly bad), everywhere was a stressful ordeal for him. But it highlighted to me that broad rulings don't help all those who are disabled equally. Ramps actually are a burden to people are crutches, I never considered that. It's like that tactile strips are a hazard to wheelchairs but we need them for those without sight. Accommodation is different for many people.

That's why it should be an ongoing conversation, as you said, everyone can and probably will face a disability at some point, so ideally all buildings have a safe guards in place for that. It is great peace of mind. To me, this building won't work for most people in a wheelchair, but for there are others who could benefit, having an elevator that is reliable.
 
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Sorry, but this is very accusatory in tone... You've called me on it, so I will for you too, you aren't being reasonable in your initial post. You walked it back a bit, but I already wrote this so... Every building should offer step free accessible units yes, including here, but if the possibility of an elevator failure meaning it should be illegal... you are better off putting taunting fines/repercussions on broken down elevators to landlords, than advocating for restrictions on the housing in the first place.

I didn't say the possibility of an elevator failure should be illegal, I said the risk should be mitigated by requiring 2 elevators.

This, by the way is the same standard most existing buildings employ, and the same standard Metrolinx is adopting for all new rapid transit stations (2 elevators minimum), and the same standard the TTC will be moving to, over time. Easier Access phase 4 will begin the introduction of redundant elevators.

Hypothetically, I ask, why not enforce this onto single family homes and townhomes too?

For several reasons.

1) Conceptually, a single-family home is just that. The impact is limited to a single household, and the risk to that household, should any one member become impaired in their mobility is a much smaller risk that one resident among 10 or more units over six floors.

2) In the case of an SFH, operating as an SFH, it is generally possible for someone to at least temporarily live life on the ground floor (sleep on the couch), presuming there is a ground floor bathroom.

There is no partial, less than ideal solution for the sixth floor resident of an apartment building. They can't stay in the lobby for six weeks.

In an ideal world, we would have every space be accessible. The world is not ideal. But in creating buildings of a height where everyone concedes the need for an elevator (just try carrying several bags of groceries up six flights of stairs) we have a different obligation.

Single storey houses are very rare, and many include accessibility barriers anyways themselves (requiring chair lifts at the front door stairs for example). Home ownership shouldn't have a barrier of additional renovation costs to those who need it that is inherently ableism costs aside (and i'm saying this as someone who thinks such zoning should be abolished to begin with!) Nobody could ever build them in that senario, it's cost prohibitive and you probably would answer that the same. It's to say, I personally would rather see something built, then nothing, as it adds an elevators and accessible units to a property with none currently.

The odds on someone being trapped in the current building due to mobility impairment, given that there is no elevator there now, is rather remote.

Its certainly possible someone could be trapped out of their unit if they became mobility impaired, and that would be unfortunate, but its a limited scope impact, as a result of a pre-existing building.

Not a likely impact, caused by a new building.

If the something that is built needs an additional elevator, then advocate for one. The developer should be more than capable of buying out one additional property if they need to go bigger to make the numbers work.

By making it illegal to build with one elevator, I am requiring the owner to buy the adjacent property and build properly. I'm fine with 'telling' rather than 'asking' here.

Apartments are the only widely available option for people, especially since most are low income! If there was a larger focus on low-rise apartment properties, then elevator costs are brought down the chain as multiple people pay for one, so there could be two, there can be redundancy. That's not even to say this building deserves defense from an accessibility perspective, but fixing the rules doesn't mean additional restrictions, and we're all aware here that restrictive zoning was born out of racism, classism and ableism. I think you'd agree that those who to places like Japan for an answer (old population, many elevators) aren't seeing the full picture, but at the same time, many many elders live there, and many places around the world with the same modern amenities and don't suffer (even though some definently could benefit from better!). I'd avoid having an instinctive reaction to enact MORE restraints. My point is... That's what causes harm to communities, action with vague direction. It sounds good in theory, but in practice the community ends up worse off. This needs a larger discussion, not a dismissive one, and you know better than many that the city planning process is one that is about discussion, application by application.

See what I have to say below, but let me add, I don't come from money. i was the first in my family to graduate HS never mind university; I grew up in apartments and still live in one, albeit a pretty nice one.

I'm absolutely in favour or removing zoning restrictions based on tenure (ownership vs rental); and to be clear, I advocated for that, and its done.

Multiplexes and rental are now allowed everywhere.

Accessibility requirements for de facto mid-rises are no more optional than complying with the fire code.

If the argument is that people can't afford to live in a building where they don't have high risk of dying a fire, the answer is not to remove the requirement for smoke detectors, alarms, 2 paths of egress, or fire extinguishers. The answer is to raise their income, or making rent-geared-to-income housing available to them.

Minimum standards matter.

As my S/O lived the last year with this struggle due to a hazardous workplace incident, this is true. He was depressed being inside a lot, not being able to move. The house we rent in is elevated considerably from ground level, but that wasn't even the issue. The largest barrier for him was still the rest of the world. The TTC (even with elevators.), The Eaton Centre (the elevator layouts are bafflingly bad), everywhere was a stressful ordeal for him. But it highlighted to me that broad rulings don't help all those who are disabled equally. Ramps actually are a burden to people are crutches, I never considered that. It should be an ongoing conversation, as you said, everyone can and probably will face a disability at some point, so ideally all buildings have a safe guard in place for that. To me, this building won't work for most people in a wheelchair, but for there are others who could benefit, having an elevator that is reliable.

As someone whose mother lived in an apartment, and whose mother had a stroke and developed COPD in her old age as well, and required a rollator to get around; and who could not physically climb even 2 flights of stairs, yet lived on the second floor of a multi-storey building, I am acutely aware of the impact of choices in building design.

Rememeber the Ice storm? That caused a power failure in my mother's building. No elevators, and no lights in the stairs, since the building lacks a backup generator.

This didn't just trap my mother, a tenant of many decades who was able-bodied when she moved in..............

Her 4x per day homecare refused to attend her, as the care providers were unwilling to walk even one-storey up in an unlit staircase.

She required that care to live.

I had to drop my work, and go over and care for her.

There's a reason I'm passionate about this.

PS, I also want back up generators to be mandatory and they must be able to power at least one elevator.
 
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This, by the way is the same standard most existing buildings employ, and the same standard Metrolinx is adopting for all new rapid transit stations (2 elevators minimum), and the same standard the TTC will be moving to, over time. Easier Access phase 4 will begin the introduction of redundant elevators.

That is encouraging to hear, as the TTC retrofits have been lackluster in some stations to date. I will say though that as a public service, they can always afford and should always have the best they can possibly offer. Not to excuse crappy builders, but even the city fails at it's own mandates a lot.

The odds on someone being trapped in the current building due to mobility impairment, given that there is no elevator there now, is rather remote.

Its certainly possible someone could be trapped out of their unit if they became mobility impaired, and that would be unfortunate, but its a limited scope impact, as a result of a pre-existing building.

I brought up my story for that reason, in that I've had it happen to someone in my life, as did you, so clearly the existing building is also a problem. It's a fallacy that makes us chose which is less 'risky' which is subjective (no elevator vs broken elevator), and then afterwards down the line the cost is considered and how that would effect the affordability to someone on limited wage. You aren't wrong for being angry, and your solutions are valid, but they do also impede on the other intersections of the issues that may also be faced by a person who needs the accessibility of even one elevator.

See what I have to say below, but let me add, I don't come from money. i was the first in my family to graduate HS never mind university; I grew up in apartments and still live in one, albeit a pretty nice one.

I'm absolutely in favour or removing zoning restrictions based on tenure (ownership vs rental); and to be clear, I advocated for that, and its done.

I remember seeing you mention that work and appreciate it as a student who only has so many resources to do advocacy. I mention poverty because the more policy I've seen in action, the more it seems that seemingly small changes sometimes have very counterbalanced consequences. I worry that if neighborhood typologies aren't allowed to change, and if small buildings such as this one aren't feasible to build either, then the city will be failing to normalize and give freedom to allow people to move in to the neighborhoods they please, limiting them to Avenues (not a great example, as this project is on an Avenue). Of course this is made a lot worse by a housing crisis, so you're right there is no simple solution.

If the argument is that people can't afford to live in a building where they don't have high risk of dying a fire, the answer is not to remove the requirement for smoke detectors, alarms, 2 paths of egress, or fire extinguishers. The answer is to raise their income, or making rent-geared-to-income housing available to them.

Minimum standards matter.

Absolutely, these issues require work from many pillars of government to make people's lives easier, including more pillars to fund proper disability pay. The intersectional nature of building a city that serves all it's population is a process that is never really done.

PS, I also want back up generators to be mandatory and they must be able to power at least one elevator.

This was something I was thinking about actually, as it could be a more cost effective solution compared to a second elevator to require a generator for small apartment buildings as such as this. The highest end generators could also work supply power to other accessibility needs, such as speech aid devices, at a cost of about $25,000-$35,000 vs $1M. Either way, generators are a bare minimum.

I was curious as to if you noticed it on another application, but there is 'precedent' for an approval for a single elevator as seen in 1744 dundas west, so this may become something that needs further exploring, especially if you want to see more done.
 
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I see the single-stair (elevator) discourse has made it to UT. You either think single egress is the devil incarnate or you think it is the solution to housing affordability. There seems to be no middle ground lol.

All I will say is: there is a trade-off between accessibility and affordability. Does every single unit of housing have to be built to the exact same standard? And what does the data show for fire deaths in single-egress jurisdictions vs those that require dual egress?
 
I was curious as to if you noticed it on another application, but there is 'precedent' for an approval for a single elevator as seen in 1744 dundas west, so this may become something that needs further exploring, especially if you want to see more done.

A single elevator is legal per code. I just don't think it should be.
 
I see the single-stair (elevator) discourse has made it to UT. You either think single egress is the devil incarnate or you think it is the solution to housing affordability. There seems to be no middle ground lol.

All I will say is: there is a trade-off between accessibility and affordability. Does every single unit of housing have to be built to the exact same standard? And what does the data show for fire deaths in single-egress jurisdictions vs those that require dual egress?

As I've noted above I don't think you apply that standard to an SFH or a Duplex or a Fourplex, where one draws that line may be a point of some debate, but in general, I would argue its where a risk becomes a statistically like occurrence over a lifetime.

That's essentially the standard we chose with regulatory floodplains by adopting the 100-year flood. We chose to say, that, on average, no home should be located on land where is a 1% or greater chance of that home being flooded by a regulatory storm.

We can chosen less, but that would make it likely you would be flooded in your lifetime; we could have chosen more, ie. a 1 in 500 year storm (that's the most we have credible data for), but obviously the higher a threshold you set, the less land is available to be developed, Given the the last ice age, ~12,000 years ago, Toronto was under ice everywhere, a one in 12,000 event would make the entire city off limits.

****

2 elevators addresses an issue specifically where one has chosen 1 elevator as a minimum standard, such that people with mobility aids can choose to rent/own a place on a higher floor, and where we have no legal prohibitions against such, and where units would be non-fuctional for even an able-bodied residents w/o the elevator.

The latter would apply less and less as the building shrinks in height. In general, we don't require elevators for 3 storeys or less, so at that height, the mandate for 2 elevators goes away.

In respect of a second egress stair, I think the question is one of whether there is sufficient alternate protection in place to keep someone safe. The second stair serves the purpose of safe exit if a fire has blocked or damaged the first stairwell, but is also there to minimize the risk of someone being unable to reach a staircase, because a fire is between them and the staircase.

That standard, to me, is reasonable, in principle. Can you provide that protection in an alternative way? Probably, but I think that's likely mandatory fire suppression systems (sprinklers) in stairs and common areas for sure and maybe in units too, and enhanced requirements about fire/smoke break on unit doors and between floors, should someone be trapped in their unit. In that context, there may be an alternative to 2 staircases, but its likely not a lot less expensive.
 

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