Toronto 880 Bay Street | ?m | 44s | Infrastructure ON | WZMH

[Xray_Crystal_Junkie]

Maybe but do we know that to be the case? And there would still be the question of whether it makes more sense to extend those contracts than put up a 100+ million building when we're already spending ~16 billion dollars a year of other peoples money. There are plenty of costs to take into account with moving this forward.

The $2 million was purely hypothetical as I stated in that post. It was merely to illustrate how the benefits might be a long ways off. Even if current rent was double that it would still take a very long time to realize cost savings. If you have an actual number or where it could be found that would be great.

 

[southofbloor]

If your $2 million is purely hypothetical, why can we "hypothetically" say that their annual costs are $10-15 million and call it a day.

 

[Xray_Crystal_Junkie]

Maybe that is closer to the cost, I don't know. I didn't pretend that those were actual numbers, I was simply trying to point out that these "cost savings" are by no means immediate.

And that was only one of my points. We don't know the final cost of the building, whether it would be the most cost effective use of the land, or what the cost of financing this would be (a generous interest rate of 3% on 100 million is 3 million a year you're spending on interest alone), among other things.

 

[confusion]

As the province grows, so will the size of Ontario's government. This to me sounds like a solid long term plan for securing and consolidating office space. And look at the location, I doubt it will be hard to rent out office space. Although the short term will cost, the long term savings seem to make a lot of fiscal sense.

 

[southofbloor]

Maybe that is closer to the cost, I don't know. I didn't pretend that those were actual numbers, I was simply trying to point out that these "cost savings" are by no means immediate.

If you don't know something, ask the group for help. I am sure there are lots of people who could give you a ballpark range that would prevent conversations being sidetracked by baseless hypothetical numbers to prove a point.

 

[Automation Gallery]

but I think the government could make back the construction costs by selling vacated properties.

Well lets not forget, the Province just recieved 50 million bucks for selling off 90 Harbour to Menkes...

 

[Xray_Crystal_Junkie]

If you don't know something, ask the group for help. I am sure there are lots of people who could give you a ballpark range that would prevent conversations being sidetracked by baseless hypothetical numbers to prove a point.

The $2 million was purely hypothetical as I stated in that post. It was merely to illustrate how the benefits might be a long ways off. Even if current rent was double that it would still take a very long time to realize cost savings. If you have an actual number or where it could be found that would be great.

Please read my posts in their entirety before smugly suggesting I do something I already have.

 

[vz64]

Maybe that is closer to the cost, I don't know. I didn't pretend that those were actual numbers, I was simply trying to point out that these "cost savings" are by no means immediate.

And that was only one of my points. We don't know the final cost of the building, whether it would be the most cost effective use of the land, or what the cost of financing this would be (a generous interest rate of 3% on 100 million is 3 million a year you're spending on interest alone), among other things.

I don't know much about ROI rate for large commercial towers, but a small 2-3 storey office building is considered a good investment if ROI is at least 10% annual of the property cost. If the same ratio is true for larger towers, then, considering that the land is owned by Ontario Government and cost of building a tower is only a fraction of the cost of built tower, the construction cost can be recovered in a few years (with ROI around 20-30%), I would say 3-5 yr, not 50...

 

[Silence&Motion]

Except that this is not true. Ontario is NOT is better shape than a lot of those places you mention. The only reason it's not a bigger deal is that the Federal government would have to backstop any default on Ontario's debt or else it would cause financial ruin for the country. The federal government is in a better position and would be forced to pick up the tab. Bond traders know this which is why they keep shoveling money into our coffers for 3 or 4% annual interest, despite our decreasing ability to pay it back.
Oh and there is no plan in Ontario. There has been zero cuts, and a laughable voluntary wage freeze that was torn to shreds in arbitration.

Really? Do you have some data to back up your assertions? Ontario's debt-to-GDP ratio is hovering between 30-40%, which is on the higher end of the provinces, but puts us in line with the Federal government. The "southern European countries" that you bring up (namely Italy, Greece, and Portugal) have debt-to-GDP ratios that are all over 90% with no realistic path to close the gap. The Liberals have been budgeting to close the gap by around 2017 if I remember correctly. And even if you don't trust them, the point is that Ontario is in a position where a more fiscally conservative government could realistically close the gap if they made it a priority.

Anyway, this whole debate is moot because it's just bad policy to base a building project like this on the long term debt. If you're interested in the debt, you should turn your attention to healthcare, tax rates and economic development. Whatever happens to our debt in the future will have everything to do with those issues and absolutely nothing to do with this building, or any other office buildings that the government is constructing this year.

 

[agoraflaneur]

I want to build 100+ million dollar rocket ship with government money. Do not ask me to justify it or explain the economics though. The burden is on you to prove why I shouldn't build it

I agree that the burden of proof should be on the side of those who want to spend the money.

That wasn't my point, though. I meant that, given the fact that many reasonable and profitable companies are doing the same thing, why should YOU assume it will be bad for the government.

Your 2 million is a wild guess, just admit it - and it sounds quite low to me. I believe the government would not have done this if it didn't save money. You don't. I do because I don't think it is to "reward" Toronto - as if anyone but us skyscraper geeks will notice.

When has the province ever done anything to reward Toronto, anyway? Or the feds for that matter?

It would make more sense for them to buy the 905 or rural Ontario, which is what has been happening for years.

 

[Northern Magus]

C'mon, do you really think someone named "Junkie" is going to be coherent?

His entire extended rant has been premised upon knee-jerk right-wing commentary, which in turn has been propped up by an amusing combination of ignorance and hypotheticals.

Ultimately he's just peddling the view that in the current financial climate, a government should actually be withdrawing money from the economy -- and thereby exacerbate its contraction.

 

[yyzer]

Interesting post in today's Daily Commercial News....looks like this one is still alive....

GOVERNMENT OFFICE TOWER Proj: 9145816-2

Toronto, Metro Toronto Reg ON PREPARING PLANS
880 Bay St, M5S 3K6
$134,000,000 est

Note: Official Plan Amendment, rezoning, and Site Plan approvals are all in place. Time frame for working drawings and construction is not known at this time. Further update in fall 2012.
Project: proposed construction of provincial government building. This project will include a 10-metre high mechanical penthouse as well as three levels of underground parking containing 450 spaces.

Scope: 867,807 square feet; 45 storeys; 3 storeys below grade; parking for 450 cars; 2 acres

Development: New
Category: Government offices

 

[confusion]

looks like this one is still alive....

Wasn't a UT'er working in 880 at one point (Ed?)?

The old building behind 880 is now also seems to have closed:

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

confusion:

That would be Archivistower.

re: Burton Hall - that building is WAY past prime inside, quite plausibly one of the most horrifying hospital building I've been here in Toronto.

AoD

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

My GP used to have his office on the 4th floor there in the 80's & early 90's until he moved over to that one storey area for a brief time, then to his own diggs in one of those cool row houses on St. Joseph Street, right across from where FIVE is being built. That one storey section next to the government building was horrific.