Toronto 619 Yonge | 237.99m | 70s | YI Developments | Core Architects

[balenciaga]

There shouldn't be any further condo development along Yonge Street until a downtown relief line is built because the Yonge Subway is over capacity as it as (as well as the Bay Bus route).

Those people who are expect to live in those condos along Yonge st in a few years are currently taking the Yonge subway too. They simply need to take a bus to get to the subway station from various pockets of low density neighbourhoods.
The total number of people who need to take the subway is the same. The condos are not adding new riders. If you don't believe so, then how do you think these future Yonge condo dwellers get around now?

I also agree with the other comments that Tourists would prefer to see the unique grittiness of Yonge Street than a street that looks like other major street in the world filled with the same uninteresting chain stores, or drug stores or banks or dentists offices etc.

Grittiness is not unique as you seem to imagine. Visit any poorer cities, you see grittiness everywhere. Being gritty is easy, just like being an average looking person is easy, while being a beautiful one is rare. Uninteresting chain stores are not exciting, but tacky money exchange, Pizza-pizzas and cheap souvenir stores between College and Bloor are not exactly interesting either.
Most people are not interested in seeing gritty cities because they are pretty much everywhere.

Condos and retails simply do not work very well - at least I've seen very few evidence of it working well in Toronto.

You mean all those vibrant European/Asian cities where people walk for 2-3 minutes to buy everything instead of driving 15 minutes just to buy milk don't work well? You mean St Lawrence Market area, Yorkville area don't work well?

Evidence that condos and retail work well providing high quality of life is so much easier to find than the opposite. When change is about to happen, people always tend to think the status quo is the best why should we change anything, until it really happens and we find the old way of doing things is not necessarily ideal.

 

[Bloor101]

When Yonge is filled with 60 Floor condos with a Starbucks, a dry cleaner, and a bank branch at the base, what will be the reason for anyone to walk down Yonge? Tourists will have no interest...even people living in the area will need to travel outside of the area for any kind of excitement. People want to move into the core so that they can live in a vibrant / interesting city...But it is these very people buying these condo's that will destroy what they came here for in the first place...

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Those people who are expect to live in those condos along Yonge st in a few years are currently taking the Yonge subway too. They simply need to take a bus to get to the subway station from various pockets of low density neighbourhoods.
The total number of people who need to take the subway is the same. The condos are not adding new riders. If you don't believe so, then how do you think these future Yonge condo dwellers get around now?

Do you have any evidence to support this? I take issue with the statement that people cramming subways have always taken the subway & that they just lived somewhere else locally. Why were roads, subways and streetcars not at capacity in the 70's & 80's? Why did they continue to get busier in the 90's, and busier in the 00's? What about all the new office buildings downtown that people have to get to? How about the growing University campuses downtown and the students who move to Toronto to attend them? How about transplants from elsewhere into Toronto? Do you know that the population in the city of Toronto (proper) grew by 4.5% from 2006-2011 - that's a time slice of just 5 years. My only thoughts to help reduce gridlock and crowded transit is to build more local and regional rapid transit (including the dt relief lines) & put a moratorium on downtown development (like that's going to happen!) to alleviate pressure and get some drivers off the roads.

 

[Memph]

Do you have any evidence to support this? I take issue with the statement that people cramming subways have always taken the subway & that they just lived somewhere else locally. Why were roads, subways and streetcars not at capacity in the 70's & 80's? Why did they continue to get busier in the 90's, and busier in the 00's? What about all the new office buildings downtown that people have to get to? How about the growing University campuses downtown and the students who move to Toronto to attend them? How about transplants from elsewhere into Toronto? Do you know that the population in the city of Toronto (proper) grew by 4.5% from 2006-2011 - that's a time slice of just 5 years. My only thoughts to help reduce gridlock and crowded transit is to build more local and regional rapid transit (including the dt relief lines) & put a moratorium on downtown development (like that's going to happen!) to alleviate pressure and get some drivers off the roads.

So your plan is to force people who want to live downtown into the 905 instead so that we can have even worse gridlock instead? There's only 2 logical reason I can think of why you might think blocking downtown development is a good thing.

1. People living elsewhere will use less infrastructure... however downtowners drive far less than anyone else, and even transit use is not that high (similar to West Humber, Rouge Hill or West Hill), so this reason is not valid.

2. Infrastructure somewhere else is under-utilized, and that is the infrastructure the people who want to live downtown will use. However, I'm doubtful of that too. I think most of the people who want to live downtown want to live there because that's where they work, or want to hang out there frequently. That means they will want to use the transit lines and roads that go into downtown, and I can't think of any that are under capacity. Even the Lakeshore West trains can get pretty crowded during rush hour, I think most GO parking lots are used to capacity.

 

[balenciaga]

When Yonge is filled with 60 Floor condos with a Starbucks, a dry cleaner, and a bank branch at the base, what will be the reason for anyone to walk down Yonge? Tourists will have no interest...even people living in the area will need to travel outside of the area for any kind of excitement. People want to move into the core so that they can live in a vibrant / interesting city...But it is these very people buying these condo's that will destroy what they came here for in the first place...

you underestimate the power of the market.
if there are thousands of condo dwellers which apparent have good disposable income and therefore the demand for all kinds of services and products, business will be established to meet such demand locally and make a profit. The existing department stores, theatres, cinemas, restaurants will continue to thrive (at least the good ones) and more will come if demand gets increasingly larger. If Queen East/Dundas East someday are packed with condos full of young professionals making $50-150K, trendy restaurants and boutique stores will open one after another for these people. Business people are smart. They smell money faster than anyone else. Why do you think downtown will have nothing but banks and dry cleaners? If a starbucks can survive as you imply, why do you think an Italian restaurant or a nice furniture store cannot?

More condo people will definitely make downtown a much more interesting place to live, instead of the opposite. Toronto businessmen will be too stupid not to do business downtown if there is such a large clientele.

Plus, it is not like there is no land for these business. Look around, there are empty parking lots everywhere throughout downtown, plus all those low rise houses that can be easily converted into retail stores. What I worry about is downtown doesn't get ENOUGH residents. One never worry about there are too many people living downtown and somehow making it boring and lifeless.

 

[balenciaga]

So your plan is to force people who want to live downtown into the 905 instead so that we can have even worse gridlock instead? There's only 2 logical reason I can think of why you might think blocking downtown development is a good thing.

1. People living elsewhere will use less infrastructure... however downtowners drive far less than anyone else, and even transit use is not that high (similar to West Humber, Rouge Hill or West Hill), so this reason is not valid.

2. Infrastructure somewhere else is under-utilized, and that is the infrastructure the people who want to live downtown will use. However, I'm doubtful of that too. I think most of the people who want to live downtown want to live there because that's where they work, or want to hang out there frequently. That means they will want to use the transit lines and roads that go into downtown, and I can't think of any that are under capacity. Even the Lakeshore West trains can get pretty crowded during rush hour, I think most GO parking lots are used to capacity.

From his name it appears he lives downtown. My understanding is that he doesn't want too many people moving downtown making his currently enjoyable and convenient life less enjoyable, that too many highrises will block his cityview, and that his love for two story victorian houses should trump people's desire to live closer to the core, all this possibly under the excuse over concern of "insufficient infrastructure".

I live downtown, and I would love to dt's population grow rapidly, maybe double in the next 3 years. With more dense downtown, there will be more business catering to them, making the core a lot more vibrant than it is now. Right now, only Yonge/Dundas, Bay/Front, Spadina/Dundas and a couple of other intersections get crowded. I want all major intersections to be packed with pedestrians who can equally enjoy the convenience of urban life as I do.

Our downtown is pretty big (from Bathurst to Parliament) but unfortunately is not dense at all. We see so many low density pockets everywhere characterized by nothing but old two story houses. It can easily accommodate 2X or 3X the population. More people living dt means fewer people driving and better functional city.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Not sure if I like this yet - will have to see better images.

In other words, your waiting to see if its actually designed by aA.

 

[balenciaga]

Do you have any evidence to support this? I take issue with the statement that people cramming subways have always taken the subway & that they just lived somewhere else locally. Why were roads, subways and streetcars not at capacity in the 70's & 80's? Why did they continue to get busier in the 90's, and busier in the 00's? What about all the new office buildings downtown that people have to get to? How about the growing University campuses downtown and the students who move to Toronto to attend them? How about transplants from elsewhere into Toronto? Do you know that the population in the city of Toronto (proper) grew by 4.5% from 2006-2011 - that's a time slice of just 5 years. My only thoughts to help reduce gridlock and crowded transit is to build more local and regional rapid transit (including the dt relief lines) & put a moratorium on downtown development (like that's going to happen!) to alleviate pressure and get some drivers off the roads.

Your argument makes little sense here.
Roads and subways are more crowded compared with 1970s because there are more people living here. It is a good thing. The bad thing is not enough infrastructure has been added since then, not too many people want to live in Toronto, is that right?

So you think office buildings and university campus setting up in downtown is a bad thing too. How weird. Isn't it a good thing that business and schools want to be downtown? Or you want them to be all the suburbs making Toronto look like a spread-out Dallas??

The Yonge subways gets more crowded because too many people are living too far from downtown (where their work and life is), not because office buildings and university campus are located dt. You had it backwards. If you job is at King/Bay, your priority should be living as close to it as possible since you go there everyday. You don't suddenly decide to live in Vaughan 25 km away from it because there you can afford your 3000sf house. This kind of behavior adds to the gridlock not office buildings.

From your previous posts, I sense that you loathe the rapid development and increasing density of the dt core. You want dt to remain as it is in the 1980 where most streets are dominated by low rises Victorian houses (under the pretext of preserving heritage). Since you are a downtown resident as I am, with all due respect my only guess is that you want dt to maintain the density level you feel comfortable with and doesn't want to change it, despite the fact more people like you and me actually want to move to the core. You are essentially saying, don't let them in. Let's keep dt to ourselves. I don't like those 50 story towers, I prefer the 2 story charming houses lining up on Yonge, Queen etc for me to see everyday.

Here is a suggestion from me: if one hates high density and love low rise Victorian houses, move to the suburbs in North York, or Scarborough. Those charming neighbourhoods are everywhere. Don't complain about too many 60 story condos are being built in the city centre. DT is supposed be crowded everywhere, is supposed to be mostly highrises buildings (pretty or not), and is supposed to be noisy 24/7. There are too few highrises in our downtown core and too many lowrise houses if I am the judge of it. Take a look at most of the side streets in dt, they are mostly low rises. And one is concerned about Yonge st is getting too tall?

You don't get to live in the downtown of a 6M metro and expect everything around you to be low rise. I myself believe providing the space for those who want to live in the centre is way more important than preserving a few pretty old houses (or not so pretty) from the 1920s. The city is for the people to live in, not for elites to appreciate how many great architecture there is (there are not too many that desperately requiring preservation to be honest).

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Read what I wrote balenciaga, I suggested nothing of the sort about not wanting more people downtown and more in the 905. With what is going up now and proposed we're looking at well over 100,000 units, how are all these people going to move around? The moratorium comment on dt growth was made in jest - partly. We are growing far too rapidly IMO plus we are going to regret some big mistakes that are being made in the near future. Transit is also decades behind where it should be to carry current and growing volumes of people.

 

[adma]

I myself believe providing the space for those who want to live in the centre is way more important than preserving a few pretty old houses (or not so pretty) from the 1920s. The city is for the people to live in, not for elites to appreciate how many great architecture there is (there are not too many that desperately requiring preservation to be honest).

Funny thing is, that's the same kind of argument that can be footed on behalf of McMansioning away old Forest Hill, Lawrence Park, etc. Though perhaps less in the name of "densification" and more in the name of "modern lifestyles/conveniences", i.e. clinging to some old Eden Smith thingy is like clinging to dial telephones or whatnot...

 

[confusion]

We are growing far too rapidly IMO plus we are going to regret some big mistakes that are being made in the near future.

This is the point we should be focusing on... take a look at the number of new projects south of bloor coming around the yonge corridor, it's mind boggling for any neighbourhood around the world! We need to ask the questions about transportation, parks, infrastructure and services before we all out destroy these neighbourhoods with poor planning. We need an infrastructure first mentality.

Density can and should be achieved, but quality of life of residents downtown does not be sacrificed, some quality planning can go a long way. I live near this development and I am someone who uses the subway about 6-7 times per week. Not every day, but I find as a resident of downtown I use my bike, walk, transit and car (weekends mostly). To say a resident downtown will not use the subway is short-sighted, why do I choose to live downtown? Because I'm close to everything. Transit included.

 

[SP!RE]

Totally agreed on all fronts with confusion's post above. Very well put.

 

[Hanlansboy]

Ladies and gents?, why do you think there is so much condo construction? Because people know they can't rely on our crumbling infrastructure and would like the choice to either walk or cycle to work, that's the very reason why I live in the core, well, outer core (Rosedale), so commuting isn't an issue, saves not just money, but time and jangled nerves. I can only see this increasing, it's a wonderful way to live, and just makes life much easier. The main reasons (just my own opinion) most move to the burbs is to raise a family in a more family friendly environment, and/or to be a home owner in an area that's more affordable. Living in the core presents it's own unique set of daily challenges, but for many, it's the only way to go. I've been living in the core since I was 20, and despite my occasion contempt for congestion, I just couldn't imagine being anywhere else. I do drive occasionally, but usually to leave the core, if I need to do anything downtown, I walk or cycle, it's the easiest way to live, as I've stated in previous posts, I work at St Michaels Hospital, a mere 20 minute walk, or 10 minute bike ride.

All that being said, it's not for everyone, but I think we, as a city, have expanded outward as far as many are willing to go, leaving the only other option, building up. I hate comparing Toronto to other global cities, but from what I've read, many downtown dwellers walk everywhere. My buddy in NYC sold his car years ago, he told me everyone walks everywhere, nobody drives in the core, what's the point? It takes too long. My hubby and I just came back from my favourite store, Mountain Co-op on King St W. I hadn't been through the entertainment distinct for ages, I was in awe at the number of projects currently under construction, seems every block has at least one, if not more, projects going up. Seems many others think the same way I do, if this was not the case, no one would be buying these units now, would they?

Sadly, I believe congestion, no matter how up to date the infrastructure , is always going to be a reality for any city our size, growing as fast as us. I suppose we (my partner and I) are a typical example of why living here is so appealing. Everything within walking distance (he also works at St Mikes), an entire world at our disposal, all without having to leave the city. We even raised our son Cris down here, it's all a matter of personal preference, but when it comes to the condo boom, it's also a matter of practicality, and, despite what the market has been telling us, I'm willing to bet it's not going to be slowing down any time soon, terrific, for me, I love watching this city grow, and the less night clubs, the better! They've demolished several already to make way for the new condos, means less violence in the core too, I can't imagine why anyone would be opposed to all this, infrastructure would be the same with or without new construction, at least with increased demand, comes increased chances of improving it,
But thats just my wacky opinion, cheers all!

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

I totally agree with all the posts above, well stated.
Hanlansboy, I think the problem with the nightclubs in the Entertainment District was there were so many in such close proximity that with so many people drunk and with hormones & testosterone raging it was a weekly recipe for disaster - but not nightclubs per se scattered here & there.

 

[adma]

Of course, in order to handle the pressure, one can always augment the Yonge bus, or even revive transit on Church...