Toronto 4800 Yonge Street | 168.24m | 49s | Menkes | Arquitectonica

^Interchange is correct. Nothing has happened yet here. Not saying it won't be approved, but the mix here could change between office/res.

OT but how much would it cost to run the Sheppard subway over to Downsview. I never understood who would think developing heavy transit in low density Scarborough makes any sense, but it kind of does make sense to create connections between the east and west 1 line, doesn't it? I wonder if that would take any strain off of the Yonge line? (sorry for the OT)

Mix will likely change in favour of more office and less residential.

When Bloor-Danforth subway line was built in 1960's, Yonge & Bloor subway interchange station was close to centre of Toronto based on population density,.... today, Yonge & Sheppard T-shaped subway interchange station is close to centre of GTA based on population density. Keeping in mind, 4800 Yonge is at southwest corner of Yonge & Sheppard,... subway transit is vital for office development,... this site is zoned for office only with no residential,... should Sheppard STUBway be extended westward to Downsview? Should folks buy into 4800 Yonge thinking it'll be a Yonge-Bloor?

3.4km of subway needed from current end of Tailtrack (Senlac) to Downsview,.... $350 million per km of subway (based on cost of Spadina Extension BEFORE the over-runs!),.. Thus, about $1 BILLION - give or take a few million,.... probably a bit less since they only need one new station at Bathurst,... and that's part of the problem, big chunk of money but only a few additional people at Bathurst will benefit from Subway service.

Oh, and then there's crossing the West Don Valley between Senlac & Bathurst,... either tunnel straight down under the Don Valley West River,... or reinforce the current Sheppard Ave West Bridge (half way down valley) over the West Don Valley and build double decker bridge with one deck dedicated for subway,.... likely cheaper to start from scratch and build new ridge-to-ridge double decker bridge... this alone could add another $1 Billion!

I usually hear about $1 Billion to $1.5 Billion total,....


A Sheppard West STUBway would definitely NOT be the best bang for the buck! Not at $1 Billion to $1.5 Billion to add one subway station at Sheppard-Bathurst.


From a subway network engineering viewpoint, yes it makes sense to interconnect Yonge subway line with Spadina subway line via Sheppard West STUBway line, especially since these high ridership subway lines are so critical and unreliable,...... but your arguement that it could possibly relieve pressure from the 100% full capacity Yonge subway line by diverting passengers onto the 70% capacity Spadina subway line, might be wrong since it's really a double edge sword, since people who will use the new Spadina north subway extension could also use this Sheppard West STUBway extension to ride on the already 100% full capacity Yonge Subway line to downtown since Yonge Street is Toronto's main artery,... and it'll make the Yonge subway line even more uncomfortable though midtown,..... I suspect this is what's going to happen anyways once Eglinton Crosstown opens.


Metrolinx & City of Toronto,... Sheppard West STUBway is NOT a priority, basically $1 Billion to $1.5 Billion to service people at one new local subway station at Bathurst & Sheppard,.... that type of money is better spent on surface Right-Of-Way LRT that serve more people in more neighbourhoods,... That said, a Sheppard West LRT had been looked at but the number of transfer from between subway and LRT for long distance east-west commuter was taken into consideration,.... Metrolinx and North York City Planning are currently working on $1.2 Billion 11km Finch West LRT from Humber to Finch WEST station (@ Keele on new Spadina Subway extension),.... construction starts in 2017,... Currently, NO plan to extend Finch West LRT to Finch Subway station on Yonge Subway line (as per original Transit City plans),.... So they're considering whether to make Sheppard STUBway a strong east-west route by adding expensive Sheppard West STUBway,... but not likely due to cost-benefit analysis,... that money would be better spent closing the LRT gap along Finch West between Keele and Yonge,... which will likely cost about $400-500 million,... no timetable for this yet, but likely get done in about 20 years (once MetroLinx finishes all the other various LRT projects around GTA and this gets to top of their to-do list).

Thus, 4800 Yonge residents shouldn't expect to be travelling West on a Sheppard West STUBway,.... anytime soon,...

If a Sheppard East LRT goes in east of DonMills, the terminus for Sheppard STUBway,... Metrolinx was looking at converting the Sheppard STUBway to LRT line,... problem is with height clearance needed for electrical infrastructure of LRT wiring. In which case it might be more viable to put in Sheppard West LRT to Downsview,.... city is already accumulating land for Sheppard widening from development. But again, a Sheppard West STUBway or LRT isn't on MetroLinx's radar. Realistically, this is the only way I can see any transit happening along this stretch of SheppardWest,.... and that's only if Sheppard East get LRT vs expensive money draining subway AND they convert current Sheppard STUBway line to LRT,.... AND both projects came in under-budget such that there was enough money for Sheppard West LRT to Downsview station. And all this has to happen before Finch West LRT between Keele and Yonge gets approved. Thus, there's a whole lot of IFs,... Anyways, I'll be betting on the Finch West LRT between Keele & Yonge getting approval.

Latest number I'm hearing from city is significantly higher than previous $1 to 1.5 Billion,... it'll cost about $2.1 Billion for Sheppard West subway extension from Sheppard-Yonge station to current Downsview Station via subway. And as you know, subway estimates are usually low-balled.

With $1.2 Billion 11km Finch West LRT in design stage now and construction starting next year from Keele to Humber College,.... closing the gap between Keele and Yonge via LRT along Finch West at a cost of about $400-500 million seems almost like a done deal now,... since it offers the biggest bang for the buck,... it'll likely get funding 10-20 years from now as they don't want to put more folks on Yonge line now and need to see how Downtown Relief Line (to Pape, Eglinton Crosstown or Sheppard Stubway terminus) and Yonge Extension to RichmondHill plays out.

Thus, anyone looking at 4800 Yonge thinking this is the next Yonge-Bloor,... forget it.

Anyways, below is subtle 4800 Yonge advertisement found on Menkes' Proctor&Gamble building (southside on Glendora near Yonge) without specifically mentioning 4800 Yonge,...
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I find the advertisement poster quite interesting,.... It just shows the words "LIVE", "WORK", "PLAY" and a young hipster bearded white guy in shades smiling as he looks back while the tip of his bike seat is poking him in the butt,.... probably works better for a downtown Church Street type of demographic,....

Anyways,.... If you read between the lines,.... Notice the advertisement doesn't mention 4800 Yonge Street even though that's Menkes' only Yonge & Sheppard project now,.... it doesn't even show a rendering of 4800 Yonge Street development proposal at all. Thus, I would expect this development proposal to get chopped. Oh, well,... say good-bye to the tombstone.

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Menkes is currently renovating their sales centre in the Ultima building on Yonge between NYC and Sheppard. So there seems to be something going on.
 
Menkes is currently renovating their sales centre in the Ultima building on Yonge between NYC and Sheppard. So there seems to be something going on.

Looks like they will be finish soon,.... and will open sales centre soon.....

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This fat-piggy development proposal has already been sliced, diced and chopped by the developer - Menkes,.... and it still doesn't come anywhere close to the criteria North York City Planning wants. Heading to OMB.

My prediction is,... developer will lose at OMB.

Hey, it already starting to look like it's been sliced, diced and chopped:

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Thats all rubbish, lets see what happens

The density allowed on this 4800 Yonge site is 4.5 with 100m height limit for all office development. Menkes is proposing 12.06 FSI density.
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...kes-arquitectonica.17877/page-10#post-1103150
I'm not even going to bother discussing the lack of parking

Density of North York Secondary Plan is generally 4.5 FSI (which usually allow for standard 100m height which is basically about 30 stories) but Menkes OMB of GibsonSquare now allow developments to exceed the former 100m height limit and higher density to about 6.0 FSI. In NYCC, going over 100m or 4.5 FSI density requires greater Section 37 payment rates. And no development in NYCC has ever gone over 6.0 FSI via City Planning. The 3 biggest development projects in NYCC are Tridel HullmarkCentre, Bazis EmeraldPark and Menkes GibsonSquare,... let's look at their density (FSI):
- GibsonSquare is twin towers of 42 stories about 125m + 12m high and 6.3 FSI via OMB
- HullmarkCentre is about 160m + 8m (NorthTower with 12 storey office + 33 storey condo for 45 stories whereas SouthTower is 35 storey) with 5.985 FSI
- EmeraldPark has 565+ residential condo units in 40 & 30 (+2) stories with height of 129m + 14m & 102m + 12m and officially 8.6 FSI on-site after density transfer from Lansing United Church; but it's 5.68 FSI combined with Lansing United Church. Note: LansingUnitedChurch is private property that could have been sold off to developer who could build on site but since church likes the area, church sells off density and height capacity to developer in exchange for rebuilt community centre for church.

Clearly the 12.0 FSI 4800 Yonge development proposal is clearly excessive. Four months ago at the community meeting Menkes was already lowering the density from 12 FSI to 8.5 - 9 FSI,.... and their logic was to get 8.5-9 FSI density via a density transfer from nearby AlbertStanding Park. Huh? You can't do a density transfer from a public park,... the park has no density on it,... duh! And it's public space,.... How's that for rubbish? Menkes' rubbish!

Now, even if Menkes can get 6.0FSI density (max for NYCC), that already slices, dices and chops Menkes 4800 Yonge development in half!
 
Can't really tell anything from those images. Hope you can get some better ones sometime soon - there doesn't seem to be anything online about changes to the proposal.

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So, 4800 Yonge went before the Design Review Panel on Tuesday, and it went with a number of new high-quality renderings, which you can see in the front page story, here! (We'll get them added to the dataBase file soon.)

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Wow, this one is looking pretty good.

While retail fronts onto Yonge Street and Sheppard Avenue, the two entrances to the connected office lobby (shaded pink below) will be located along the northeastern side along Yonge Street, and on the northwestern corner fronting Sheppard Avenue. A connection is also proposed to the TTC subway station entrance located in the adjoining Nestle Tower. Members of the panel expressed that those who will use the subway entrance should have a positive experience, urging the team to maximize all opportunities for the new entrance to be welcoming through good utilization of space and daylight.

Relevant portion of UT article pertaining to the TTC entrance.

In general, members agreed that the design would be very elegant if implemented successfully. One member commented that the importance of this intersection and prominence of this building necessitates use of high quality materials, and recommended that curtain wall be considered in place of the proposed window wall.

Did the members begin reading UrbanToronto?
 
Other images.

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It very pretty.The planning dept said they want a refined design.
I hope the tower will not lose it shape.
It a world class design.
 

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It very pretty.The planning dept said they want a refined design.
I hope the tower will not lose it shape.
It a world class design.

It's ok and will be a decent addition to the Sheppard-Yonge node of the North York skyline.

However, this highlights to me how subjective one's appreciation of architecture can be, when you have such high praise for this design and in the same day post of your dislike for the new Globe & Mail building. For me, Globe & Mail is a far superior building.
 
However, this highlights to me how subjective one's appreciation of architecture can be, when you have such high praise for this design and in the same day post of your dislike for the new Globe & Mail building. For me, Globe & Mail is a far superior building.
Yeah, not to be a jerk about it, but this is also the guy who can't say enough good things about Dubai and held up the Sapphire Tower as an example of good design. Yes, architecture is subjective, but if you spend every second post complaining about architectural quality in Toronto, you'd better be able to back up your opinions.

For the record, I think this one looks interesting, but given their records, I'm a little skeptical about Menkes and Arquitectonica's ability to get the details right. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
 

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