Toronto 4696 Yonge Street | 131.3m | 40s | Skale | Turner Fleischer

[sunnyraytoronto]

Keep in mind, the office towers along the south of side of Sheppard, just to the east are being looked at for demolition.....

Err,.... IF that 45-47 Sheppard East office buildings (Ontario Services/Courts) are to be redeveloped,... the North York Centre Secondary Plan requires the new proposal to contain at least the same amount of office space that is to be demolished,...

 

[Northern Light]

Err,.... IF that 45-47 Sheppard East office buildings (Ontario Services/Courts) are to be redeveloped,... the North York Centre Secondary Plan requires the new proposal to contain at least the same amount of office space that is to be demolished,...

The City has comparable policies for midtown and downtown, and they are being waived, time and again, generally in exchange for affordable housing commitments.

110 Eglinton East, 350 Bloor and many more have seen their office space requirements waived.

I don't envision it working out any differently north of the 401.

 

[11th]

I don't recall making any presumptive statements about the permanent death of the office market, in this post, or any other.

Indeed, I've been one of the few here to tell others to slow down on such predictions and provide evidence that those are premature.

However, NYCC is far different from downtown.

During the last office boom downtown, virtually no new office space was built in NYCC, and the vacancy rate and per ft2 rental premiums were suggestive of moderate demand at best.

I would certainly call it premature to suggest even in NYCC that no office space will be built for 25 years. But I think it entirely fair to say there's an ample selection of sites relative to demand.

Keep in mind, the office towers along the south of side of Sheppard, just to the east are being looked at for demolition.....

My guess is that certain conditions that allowed the NYCC boom to happen in the 80s did not exist during the last downtown office boom.

 

[taal]

I don't recall making any presumptive statements about the permanent death of the office market, in this post, or any other.

Indeed, I've been one of the few here to tell others to slow down on such predictions and provide evidence that those are premature.

However, NYCC is far different from downtown.

During the last office boom downtown, virtually no new office space was built in NYCC, and the vacancy rate and per ft2 rental premiums were suggestive of moderate demand at best.

I would certainly call it premature to suggest even in NYCC that no office space will be built for 25 years. But I think it entirely fair to say there's an ample selection of sites relative to demand.

Keep in mind, the office towers along the south of side of Sheppard, just to the east are being looked at for demolition.....

Vacancy rates when compared to the rest of the GTA have always been fairly low on average in the NYCC zone - I think the main reason you don't see any new offices built - which you are absolutely correct on - is more a commentary on the cost to build vs potential rental rates not being viable or lucrative - the situation is pretty similar in Y&E and Y&B and for a long time downtown as well - of course that changed considerably prior the pandemic.

But this is why when the city forces the matter, you get office space even if it's at a loss to a developer but a benefit to the community longer term.


Slightly related - this is my concern for the newly built downtowns i.e. take VCC and MCC - both started with fairly high office build targets and of course that has been scaled back significantly.

Now you could argue NYCC already has a critical mass of office space, which fair, that's likely true, so as long as that's maintained ...

But I think when we build large dense nodes that are entirely residential they will never become much more than a bedroom community ... and maybe in certain cases that's fine ... but if you want to encourage retail and other amenities you really need the mix.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

My guess is that certain conditions that allowed the NYCC boom to happen in the 80s did not exist during the last downtown office boom.

City of North York's office boom in 70s, 80s, early-90s,... that would be North York Mayor Mel Lastman,... the ultimate salesman!

Office market tanked in early 90s,.... After 1998 amalgamation, nooo-body selling the benefits of North York Centre,....

But North York Centre didn't enjoy later office boom like downtown,... why? In that the original Mel Lastman's new Downtown Plan for the area,... since 1974 Yonge subway extension to Sheppard & Finch Station,.... only Office towers (white buildings in image) to be built along Yonge frontage,... apartment/condos towers (horizontal stripe buildings) only allowed off-Yonge towards Service Ring Roads of Beecroft & Doris,... and this was generally the blue print until mid-1990s,.... j

Just before amalgamation,.... City of North York got a great deal from Menkes new Empress Walk proposal that would place residential condo towers on Yonge st frontage but hidden above podium mall,... deal included rebuilding of larger capacity McKee Public School, rebuilding of larger capacity Earl Haig Secondary School, new Mitchell Field Community Centre,... land conveyance for Doris Road extension,... but now the precedent is set, and residential condos become allowable on Yonge St frontage,.... much more profitable condo towers VS less profitable office towers,.... Menkes likely didn't profit much from Empress Walk,.. but since Menkes was largest developer in North York Centre, they profited from subsequent condo projects on Yonge frontage like their Ultima, GibsonSquare, etc,...

Between 1998 amalgamation and about 2015,... North York Centre Secondary Plan area along Yonge corridor saw about 70 new condo towers built,... but only 1 office tower (5000 Yonge) making this a Vertical Sleeping Community! Since then, while office boom downtown,... there Tridel HullmarkCentre built with 12-storey office at base of North Tower and 3-storey office in podium,... but these were Office-Condo units, sold mainly to oversea investors with little interest in opening office or even renting them out! Ditto for 3rd floor Office-Condo of Bazis Emerald Park. Soon to open is 11-storey regular office tower at G-Goup Ellie Condo,... and Menkes 4800 Yonge under construction now will have about 7-floors of office totalling 15,000m2 of Office Space.

 

[ADRM]

and remember the elevator ratio noted by @interchange42, above, as well.

Interestingly (and sadly), I've had Staff tell me directly that they don't give a toss about elevator ratio one way or another.

As always, Planning and Urban Design Staff generally care much more about the (perceived, subjective) reading of the building from a passerby outside the building than the people who will actually call it home.