Toronto 2150 Lake Shore | 215.75m | 67s | First Capital | Allies and Morrison

[Midtown Urbanist]

Good points being made. I think it's fair to say that what's been built already on Lake Shore, Park Lawn and Marine Parade Drive is somewhat lacklustre.

Therefore, what this development needs to get right in its master-plan (after all the other essentials or core criteria are met) is finding a way to make this development feel like the natural centre of the entire Humber Bay Shores neighbourhood, the natural meeting place, the locale you go to shop, dine, and have fun after work hours. Then when all is said and done, HBS can feel more like a complete neighbourhood.

 

[Northern Light]

I'll comment, briefly on the existing park space on the south side of Marine Parade Drive.

I went on one of my 12km walks through there just 3 weeks ago.

(started on Royal York by Evans, headed down to the Lake, and went east, ended up walking up Roncy to the subway).

At any rate, I can safely say the parkland was very fully utilized on a hot summer's day, there wasn't a lot of spare space to walk, bike or sit.

They already re-did the edge of the Humber Bay Buttefly Habitat to create a much wider (attractively bricked) trail.

There really isn't space for more patronage of that portion of the park system.

Given that the Lake is a key draw; it won't be sufficient to simply create more park space elsewhere, it will need to be destination space to pull people back from the Lake.

As to the actual current design of TBBH, I mostly like it.

But I have to say they have some plain grass sections which were completely parched; and also melty hot with no shade to be found.

Also, I noted a relative paucity of drinking fountains on a hot day!

That's a lot of baking hot emptiness there!

More trees! Drinking Fountains too; and then new parks in the area that can take some of the crowds!

***

For those who haven't seen the nice brickwork done on the trail here:

I'm not suggesting foreclosing that Lake view w/trees, the view is a nice one; but the open stretch is quite long (several hundred M) Definitely room for some shade.


***

Also thought I'd note that the # of cyclists in this area is impressive, much higher than I was anticipating.

There were cyclists using the Royal York Bike lanes, lots more on Lake Shore in the protected 2-way section; and down at the water's edge the cycling traffic was constant.

 

[marcus_a_j]

I biked here several weeks ago and stuck to Marine Parade Drive as the MGT was just way too busy. As @Northern Light noted, the water is the main draw. As more of 2150 Lake Shore gets developed, the park space along the water and the trails will be at capacity during the week in the summer. Weekends in the summer will be over-capacity

 

[interchange42]

Just "offshore" from this, of course are the headlands of Humber Bay Park East and West, and anyone who's looking to get away from the crowds will find more space on those curving and better-treed peninsulas.

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[innsertnamehere]

It's a lot busier this summer from my understanding because of ActiveTO and the Pandemic giving people more free time and less to do.

Cycling as an activity has absolutely exploded this summer.

Now of course it could just never go down again, but for now it's not the "normal".

 

[concrete_and_light]

But I have to say they have some plain grass sections which were completely parched; and also melty hot with no shade to be found.

This is basically Toronto's idea of a park and reflects our lack of civic imagination and culture of bare minimumism and distinct lack of empathy for those who don't have private outdoor space. Scorched field + some chained-together garbage and recycling bins = park to the City it often seems. The city's political culture and its values that are set by the priorities (low taxes and roads) of lucky homeowners with backyards needs to transformed. We're a big city of the future now and these living in the past penny-pinchers with small ideas have got to retire, have the humility to listen to new ideas, and let us build something new.

 

[Amare]

It's a lot busier this summer from my understanding because of ActiveTO and the Pandemic giving people more free time and less to do.

Cycling as an activity has absolutely exploded this summer.

Now of course it could just never go down again, but for now it's not the "normal".

Make no mistake, the pandemic is certainly driving up pedestrian activity up in the area significantly. However, i'll note that this park was still excessively busy at times prior to the pandemic. It's only going to get busier

Another thing we havent even factored in, is that once the Legion Road Extension things will get even busier from some of the condo dwellers there. In fact, it actually makes me even more concerned about the current Humber Bay Park system and the crowding.

So in total, here are all the developments in the pipeline that can make the crowding at the park worse in the future:

1) 2150 Lake Shore Master Planned Community
2) 42 Park Lawn
3) 2189 Lake Shore Blvd
4) Water's Edge
5) Vita on the lake/vita 2
6) Phoenix
7) 2256 Lake Shore Blvd
8) Rear of apartment blocks by Lake Shore and Burlington Ave
9) 2282 Lake Shore Blvd (speculative)

In total, the developments above will bring upwards an additional 10-20K residents to the immediate area.

Edit to chime in on the below quote:

This is basically Toronto's idea of a park and reflects our lack of civic imagination and culture of bare minimumism and distinct lack of empathy for those who don't have private outdoor space. Scorched field + some chained-together garbage and recycling bins = park to the City it often seems. The city's political culture and its values that are set by the priorities (low taxes and roads) of lucky homeowners with backyards needs to transformed. We're a big city of the future now and these living in the past penny-pinchers with small ideas have got to retire, have the humility to listen to new ideas, and let us build something new.

That's exactly our problem. Humber Bay Shores, and further west, Col. Samuel Smith Park are both legacies of an era where the city had the foresight to create park space that was desperately needed to mitigate a variety of factors. Both parks were created with fill, and today people are reaping the benefits of what was created 40+ years ago. Back then, it wasnt even a thought that there would be a huge development boom in either area.

Funny thing is, today we are experiencing a development boom in various parts of the city and there's no foresight to expand/create new parks in the city. We're doing the complete 180 of what was done in the 1970s. That will tell you what the problem is with "urban planning" in this city.

It's funny I read a stat somewhere, I cant remember where right now, but it was something to the extent that most of Toronto's parks come in the form of parkettes and if you put those parkettes together they account for something like 70% of Toronto's park space. The other 30% were larger parks (such as High Park, Humber Bay Park, Rouge Valley Park, etc..). The kicker is, when you account for population density, the majority of Toronto was park deficient because those parkettes that the city likes to claim are "parks" are tiny. So essentially, the city hasnt created any significant park space in the past ~20-30 years, because those parkettes are just what the name implies: tiny green spaces.

 

[W. K. Lis]

These playgrounds should be located not only at each building at 2150 Lake Shore, but at each other buildings in the neighbourhood.

 

[interchange42]

Make no mistake, the pandemic is certainly driving up pedestrian activity up in the area significantly. However, i'll note that this park was still excessively busy at times prior to the pandemic. It's only going to get busier

Another thing we havent even factored in, is that once the Legion Road Extension things will get even busier from some of the condo dwellers there. In fact, it actually makes me even more concerned about the current Humber Bay Park system and the crowding.

So in total, here are all the developments in the pipeline that can make the crowding at the park worse in the future:

1) 2150 Lake Shore Master Planned Community
2) 42 Park Lawn
3) 2189 Lake Shore Blvd
4) Water's Edge
5) Vita on the lake/vita 2
6) Phoenix
7) 2256 Lake Shore Blvd
8) Rear of apartment blocks by Lake Shore and Burlington Ave
9) 2282 Lake Shore Blvd (speculative)

In total, the developments above will bring upwards an additional 10-20K residents to the immediate area.

Edit to chime in on the below quote:

That's exactly our problem. Humber Bay Shores, and further west, Col. Samuel Smith Park are both legacies of an era where the city had the foresight to create park space that was desperately needed to mitigate a variety of factors. Both parks were created with fill, and today people are reaping the benefits of what was created 40+ years ago. Back then, it wasnt even a thought that there would be a huge development boom in either area.

Funny thing is, today we are experiencing a development boom in various parts of the city and there's no foresight to expand/create new parks in the city. We're doing the complete 180 of what was done in the 1970s. That will tell you what the problem is with "urban planning" in this city.

It's funny I read a stat somewhere, I cant remember where right now, but it was something to the extent that most of Toronto's parks come in the form of parkettes and if you put those parkettes together they account for something like 70% of Toronto's park space. The other 30% were larger parks (such as High Park, Humber Bay Park, Rouge Valley Park, etc..). The kicker is, when you account for population density, the majority of Toronto was park deficient because those parkettes that the city likes to claim are "parks" are tiny. So essentially, the city hasnt created any significant park space in the past ~20-30 years, because those parkettes are just what the name implies: tiny green spaces.

Recreational space is coming at 2150 Lake Shore, but it's not the only new space in the area.

Immediately beside Phoenix, Grand Park is in the process of becoming a much enlarged Grand Manitoba Park right now. Once Legion Road goes through to Lake Shore (can't come soon enough) that should include small enlargements to the Mimico Creek green space close to it (surely some of the area around the Bonar Creek overflow pond can be made useable. The community needs to push for the bicycle trail that goes up the east side of the Mimico Creek and currently stops at the rail corridor to be extended soon to the Queensway, and then not too far off in the future, further north.

I am concerned about recreational space, but not in quite the panic you seem to be indicating. Yes it's getting busier here, but when you buy into a high-rise community you're not expecting loads of private-public space around you. Let's get the links improved in the area through new trails and fixing up unused/unloved local green spaces, and let's better fund parks here so that they're not just parched, shadeless lawns… but I don't see an impending calamity ahead.

42

 

[Amare]

We'll have to see how things play out. Improvements to the ravine system, and the Legion Road extension will help quite a bit *if* they ever happen, but with the way the city likes to do things, I'm not holding my breath that neither will happen within the next 20 years.

I'll be staying in the overly concerned camp, simply because of the sheer amount of density in the pipeline that will make this area the 2nd densest neighborhood in Canada.

 

[W. K. Lis]

People want to move to this area because of the Humber River valley, Lake Ontario, the closeness of High Park, and Mimico Creek. Not even being downwind (from the north-ish) of the Humber Treatment Plant (city's second largest wastewater treatment plant).

From link.

 

[Northern Light]

Recreational space is coming at 2150 Lake Shore, but it's not the only new space in the area.

Immediately beside Phoenix, Grand Park is in the process of becoming a much enlarged Grand Manitoba Park right now. Once Legion Road goes through to Lake Shore (can't come soon enough) that should include small enlargements to the Mimico Creek green space close to it (surely some of the area around the Bonar Creek overflow pond can be made useable. The community needs to push for the bicycle trail that goes up the east side of the Mimico Creek and currently stops at the rail corridor to be extended soon to the Queensway, and then not too far off in the future, further north.

I am concerned about recreational space, but not in quite the panic you seem to be indicating. Yes it's getting busier here, but when you buy into a high-rise community you're not expecting loads of private-public space around you. Let's get the links improved in the area through new trails and fixing up unused/unloved local green spaces, and let's better fund parks here so that they're not just parched, shadeless lawns… but I don't see an impending calamity ahead.

42

A calamity is a strong word. LOL

However, when it comes to buyer's expectations, I think it safe to assume they are always higher than reality commands, including that nothing will ever block their view, no one will ever move in after them, the traffic will never get worse; never mind the building turning out like the render!

In application to park space, it will never seem more overcrowded that the day they visited the sales office; and more will be added for each additional resident.

While I don't think the current situation is calamitous; I do think it needs attention in the near future not to head in that direction.

 

[Northern Light]

Make no mistake, the pandemic is certainly driving up pedestrian activity up in the area significantly. However, i'll note that this park was still excessively busy at times prior to the pandemic. It's only going to get busier

Another thing we havent even factored in, is that once the Legion Road Extension things will get even busier from some of the condo dwellers there. In fact, it actually makes me even more concerned about the current Humber Bay Park system and the crowding.

So in total, here are all the developments in the pipeline that can make the crowding at the park worse in the future:

1) 2150 Lake Shore Master Planned Community
2) 42 Park Lawn
3) 2189 Lake Shore Blvd
4) Water's Edge
5) Vita on the lake/vita 2
6) Phoenix
7) 2256 Lake Shore Blvd
8) Rear of apartment blocks by Lake Shore and Burlington Ave
9) 2282 Lake Shore Blvd (speculative)

In total, the developments above will bring upwards an additional 10-20K residents to the immediate area.

Edit to chime in on the below quote:

That's exactly our problem. Humber Bay Shores, and further west, Col. Samuel Smith Park are both legacies of an era where the city had the foresight to create park space that was desperately needed to mitigate a variety of factors. Both parks were created with fill, and today people are reaping the benefits of what was created 40+ years ago. Back then, it wasnt even a thought that there would be a huge development boom in either area.

Funny thing is, today we are experiencing a development boom in various parts of the city and there's no foresight to expand/create new parks in the city. We're doing the complete 180 of what was done in the 1970s. That will tell you what the problem is with "urban planning" in this city.

It's funny I read a stat somewhere, I cant remember where right now, but it was something to the extent that most of Toronto's parks come in the form of parkettes and if you put those parkettes together they account for something like 70% of Toronto's park space. The other 30% were larger parks (such as High Park, Humber Bay Park, Rouge Valley Park, etc..). The kicker is, when you account for population density, the majority of Toronto was park deficient because those parkettes that the city likes to claim are "parks" are tiny. So essentially, the city hasnt created any significant park space in the past ~20-30 years, because those parkettes are just what the name implies: tiny green spaces.

You're not wrong.

In respect of fill. Nothing wrong w/that; however, if you want healthy vegetation on top, you need a thick layer of top soil and added nutrients for several years, til nature can replenish that on its own.

Humber Bay has not had that investment, and has suffered for it, with higher vegetative mortality and lower production of height and canopy.

In terms of large space; we'd have to define that; but leaving out parks that sort of existed but were not designated as such (Rouge Park);

The last of the large parks in the City would probably be McCowan District Park in Scarborough, and before that Downsview.

There may be others, but off the top of my head I can't think of any other 20ha/50 acre or larger parks in the in last 30 years.

It's not apocalyptic; but it does need to change.

 

[interchange42]

We'll have to see how things play out. Improvements to the ravine system, and the Legion Road extension will help quite a bit *if* they ever happen, but with the way the city likes to do things, I'm not holding my breath that neither will happen within the next 20 years.

I'll be staying in the overly concerned camp, simply because of the sheer amount of density in the pipeline that will make this area the 2nd densest neighborhood in Canada.

Essentially, you and I and everyone else in the area has to keep at the local Councillor's office (Mark Grimes in this case) with reminders that we expect these green recreational links to be built. Send letters, at least once a year until they are built: don't let them off the hook!

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[Amare]

^Couldnt agree more. Unfortunately it's the only thing that can be done at this point, until the point he gets voted out of office bacause quite frankly he hasnt done much of anything for that area. Well, except to allow development to proceed practically unchecked until it almost became too late.