Toronto 2024 Olympic Bid (Dead)

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It's interesting that universities have entered this discussion. I think most reasonable people would agree that the size and quality of Boston's universities vastly outstrips that of Toronto's, and that the Boston's universities and research institutes have been a powerful driver of that city's sustainable competitive advantage and prosperity. Former NYC Mayor Bloomberg got it when he created a city-supported global competition to create a new STEM university in that city. Since we have limited dollars to invest, I wish we would think about spending them on something that would create long-term economic value as part of a serious reflection on how this city is going to make its way in the world. I've seen a number of "Hey, we're world class!" arguments in favour of throwing a one month Olympic party, and some arguments to the effect we could leverage the games to get higher levels of government to pay for infrastructure like a new expressway into downtown, but I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that hosting the games will give us much of a return on the massive investment they would entail. If we're going to use a mega project to try to mobilize federal and provincial funding and break our Council-created inability to ever do anything right, we should give some thought to selecting the right project.

It's not just a matter of throwing public money at the problem - which will likely go into expanding enrollment/reducing tuition and not improving quality - as noted, neither Harvard nor MIT are publicly funded. Besides, we already have a STEM university - UOIT.

As to Bloomberg/NYC - they have not been hesitant in spending public funds for megaprojects, then and now. There is a reason why they also went for the Olympics in 2012. It's not an "either/or" - it's both - and NYC is arguably a city that doesn't need to increase their profile.

AoD

 

[Tewder]

And for crying out loud, if one is going to make a list, shouldn't at least one do a bit more research?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_metropolitan_Boston

Surely you have heard of Northeastern and Tufts.

AoD

Thank you for posting that! I almost did a spit-take of my coffee when I read Riverdale's ridiculous statement about Boston's schools of higher learning. I don't expect objectivity from Riverdale but this reaches a new depth.

Montreal is a fine city. Boston is a fine city. Both have more history than Toronto, as they're older. Neither one, in 2015, can hold a candle to Toronto.
[...]
I've made this rant over the past year or two on a number of UT threads, but apparently it needs to be said over and over: Toronto might have its flaws, but it is one of the top 10 or 15 cities worldwide. Its influence is huge, its growth is enormous.

We have no need for an Olympics to 'announce' ourselves, to 'boost growth' or 'to build infrastructure.' All of those things are happening right now.

Wow, I think somebody's homesick. I mean, we all love Toronto but this boosterism is pointless. Let's just all say it now and get it out the way, "We all love Toronto, yippee!"

Ok now let's get back to discussing the real issues that real people have to deal with daily, i.e. the long term political stalemate over badly needed infrastructure funding and the resulting traffic gridlock that pollutes our air, disrupts quality of life and costs our economy billions of dollars yearly, among other things! If leveraged correctly an Olympics could be a solution out of this in a timely way. No games? Well it's not a mystery, it'll be status quo, i.e. no additional funding, ongoing political squabbling, one new transit vision after another, and rapid transit to a political field in Scarborough...

For Salsa: I was protesting the use of Montreal's expressways as a symbol/argument of why Montreal is superior to Toronto on traffic infrastructure due to its buried crosstown. I was not trying to say the Gardiner was anything but a travesty itself, but seriously, anyone driving through the crumbling bridge, tunnel, and flyover layout of Montreal cannot think they've lessons to teach Toronto.

That Salsa is pointing out real issues regarding the inadequacy and condition of infrastructure in Canada's largest city vs smaller regional cities like Montreal and Boston is not to present idealistic symbols or score cheap points in some imaginary debate in your head. It's to look at our issues soberly and make the point that other places are doing many things better than us with far smaller populations and fewer resources. Does this make them better than us? Um no, sorry. It does mean that we have been suffering from bad political leadership for decades, public apathy, political divisiveness (at all levels of government).... in a word stalemate. We have just come out of an unprecedented period of economic growth yet have little to show for it other than blue glass condos. What little that has been achieved (compared with what has been needed) was largely stimulated by and pushed through by the PanAms. Show a little gratitude.

I've seen a number of "Hey, we're world class!" arguments in favour of throwing a one month Olympic party, and some arguments to the effect we could leverage the games to get higher levels of government to pay for infrastructure like a new expressway into downtown, but I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that hosting the games will give us much of a return on the massive investment they would entail. If we're going to use a mega project to try to mobilize federal and provincial funding and break our Council-created inability to ever do anything right, we should give some thought to selecting the right project.

Pman, i already posted articles that demonstrate what the PanAms achieved and extrapolate on what the Olympics could achieve on a larger scale.... but ok, i'm open to discussion of course, what other mega event did you have in mind that could be leveraged for Toronto? Contrary to the rantings of some posters here I could care less about athletics specifically.

 

[Euphoria]

Any criticism of TO's infrastructure deficits gets some people's backs up. My motivation in any criticism of the city is always to find ways to improve it. I don't understand how some can make a virtue out of complaisance. You have to fight for improvements. When people say positive things about other cities, it isn't to take anything away from TO, it's to highlight the fact that some places have solved the problems we're up against. I think TO's biggest strength is its neighborhoods, and there is a growing new inventory of modern architecture, though there's also a lot of very poorly designed, cheaply built recent stuff. And I love modern architecture, including some of the International Style and Brutalist stuff. The TD Centre is a triumph. We all have our favourites. But while TO has dynamism, it does lack the beauty of a lot of cities. There's no Central Park, Champs Elysee, Michigan Ave., La Rambla, Fifth Ave., and so on. I get that we're a different city, but we have a lot of watered down visions that never came into fruition. There are still too many parking lots and underdeveloped brownfield sites. Heritage properties are demolished with regularity. Transit is insufficient. Our cultural and educational institutions don't quite live up to our population and economic significance. Our city's biggest recent successes have come mostly through private development and Waterfront Toronto. They are significant but not sufficient improvements. I want the Olympics for three main reasons: spirit of athletic excellence, legacy of visionary infrastructure, and tourism. It's big money for the city to support many priorities. Realize though that a win isn't in the bag. You have to have the stomach for a long, hard fight. I say, let's get the bid's vision right for 2024, push for it, and if we don't win, apply for 2028 as the plans will already be in place and just need tweaking. I think if we have our eyes open about what's involved, we can't lose -- even if we don't ever get an Olympics, because we'll have strived to create a better vision of the city and that goal is a powerful motivating force.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

It's not just a matter of throwing public money at the problem - which will likely go into expanding enrollment/reducing tuition and not improving quality - as noted, neither Harvard nor MIT are publicly funded. Besides, we already have a STEM university - UOIT.

As to Bloomberg/NYC - they have not been hesitant in spending public funds for megaprojects, then and now. There is a reason why they also went for the Olympics in 2012. It's not an "either/or" - it's both - and NYC is arguably a city that doesn't need to increase their profile.

AoD

What do you think of UOIT? Is it working out as hoped? Just curious, as I know little about its recent post-buildout history.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Thank you for posting that! I almost did a spit-take of my coffee when I read Riverdale's ridiculous statement about Boston's schools of higher learning. I don't expect objectivity from Riverdale but this reaches a new depth.

Wow, I think somebody's homesick. I mean, we all love Toronto but this boosterism is pointless. Let's just all say it now and get it out the way, "We all love Toronto, yippee!"

...

That Salsa is pointing out real issues regarding the inadequacy and condition of infrastructure in Canada's largest city vs smaller regional cities like Montreal and Boston is not to present idealistic symbols or score cheap points in some imaginary debate in your head. It's to look at our issues soberly and make the point that other places are doing many things better than us with far smaller populations and fewer resources. Does this make them better than us? Um no, sorry. It does mean that we have been suffering from bad political leadership for decades, public apathy, political divisiveness (at all levels of government).... in a word stalemate. We have just come out of an unprecedented period of economic growth yet have little to show for it other than blue glass condos. What little that has been achieved (compared with what has been needed) was largely stimulated by and pushed through by the PanAms. Show a little gratitude.

Pman, i already posted articles that demonstrate what the PanAms achieved and extrapolate on what the Olympics could achieve on a larger scale.... but ok, i'm open to discussion of course, what other mega event did you have in mind that could be leveraged for Toronto? Contrary to the rantings of some posters here I could care less about athletics specifically.

Calm down, sport. I've already apologized for not being all-knowledgeable about Boston schools.

Debating points change over the course of a long debate, as per "Contrary to the rantings... I could care less about athletics specifically." That was my spit-take moment. You'd spend a $1 billion dollars on a track & field stadium in the Portlands and you could care less about athletics? Wow.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...at-has-to-happen-for-toronto-to-bid-1.3184044

Interesting article featuring an interview with a Janice Forsyth, who was at a Centre for Olympic Studies at Western. (Who knew?) I liked the nugget about tearing down the PanAm velodrome to build an Olympic velodrome. So, all the money spent on the PanAms will get re-spent and redoubled for the Olympics, it seems.

 

[Tewder]

Debating points change over the course of a long debate, as per "Contrary to the rantings... I could care less about athletics specifically." That was my spit-take moment. You'd spend a $1 billion dollars on a track & field stadium in the Portlands and you could care less about athletics? Wow.

I think somebody's been in the Barbados sun a little too long... if you can find one instance where I've advocated for these games just 'for the sake of the games' I'll give you a big ol' high five... but i'll save you the time, you wont find it. The games would be an amazing historic event for this city, to be sure, but as I've stated before I would support you in opposition to them if the bid were nothing but white elephants with little by way of infrastructure and revitalization plans. Based on the PanAms though I think this is highly unlikely... but why not wait and see? To not even see a bid is to slam the door on any possibilities whatsoever.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

What do you think of UOIT? Is it working out as hoped? Just curious, as I know little about its recent post-buildout history.

I am not in the deep of it so I can't really tell you whether it is "working" to its' original intent - but keep in mind, UOIT is very, very young and don't have a huge chance to build a reputation yet.

Interesting article featuring an interview with a Janice Forsyth, who was at a Centre for Olympic Studies at Western. (Who knew?) I liked the nugget about tearing down the PanAm velodrome to build an Olympic velodrome. So, all the money spent on the PanAms will get re-spent and redoubled for the Olympics, it seems.

Well clearly if we bid the proposal should feature temporary expansion of existing venues (where they exist) instead of complete new builds - that's one of the key changes put forward by the IOC and we should put that to the test. It might be a good argument to build some proper transit to venues like the Aquatic centre.

AoD

 

[pman]

Thank you for posting that! I almost did a spit-take of my coffee when I read Riverdale's ridiculous statement about Boston's schools of higher learning. I don't expect objectivity from Riverdale but this reaches a new depth.




Wow, I think somebody's homesick. I mean, we all love Toronto but this boosterism is pointless. Let's just all say it now and get it out the way, "We all love Toronto, yippee!"

Ok now let's get back to discussing the real issues that real people have to deal with daily, i.e. the long term political stalemate over badly needed infrastructure funding and the resulting traffic gridlock that pollutes our air, disrupts quality of life and costs our economy billions of dollars yearly, among other things! If leveraged correctly an Olympics could be a solution out of this in a timely way. No games? Well it's not a mystery, it'll be status quo, i.e. no additional funding, ongoing political squabbling, one new transit vision after another, and rapid transit to a political field in Scarborough...



That Salsa is pointing out real issues regarding the inadequacy and condition of infrastructure in Canada's largest city vs smaller regional cities like Montreal and Boston is not to present idealistic symbols or score cheap points in some imaginary debate in your head. It's to look at our issues soberly and make the point that other places are doing many things better than us with far smaller populations and fewer resources. Does this make them better than us? Um no, sorry. It does mean that we have been suffering from bad political leadership for decades, public apathy, political divisiveness (at all levels of government).... in a word stalemate. We have just come out of an unprecedented period of economic growth yet have little to show for it other than blue glass condos. What little that has been achieved (compared with what has been needed) was largely stimulated by and pushed through by the PanAms. Show a little gratitude.



Pman, i already posted articles that demonstrate what the PanAms achieved and extrapolate on what the Olympics could achieve on a larger scale.... but ok, i'm open to discussion of course, what other mega event did you have in mind that could be leveraged for Toronto? Contrary to the rantings of some posters here I could care less about athletics specifically.

Fair question. I wouldn't push for any tangential mega project to attempt to get the right infrastructure in the right place. If I had any idea of how power works in this town, I'd try to build a consensus around building the infrastructure we need: specifically DRL. I'd also try to get the province to buy into building a large Waterloo University coop STEM-only campus somewhere downtown, and think about leveraging that with modest time-limited tax breaks for software developers to add jobs here. For a really big vision, I'd propose a data sharing agreement with Google's health division, to exchange suitably anonymized health data for all Ontarians, for the location of at least part of that business here. But in any case, I wouldn't advocate spending a single cent on anything that didn't offer the potential of a recurring long-term benefit.

I understand that our municipal political class is really, really stupid, and that the only defensible Olympic argument is that we can't expect any level of government to fund anything sensible in Toronto without the kind of Stakhanovite push an Olympics would bring. Though as I note from Euphoria's support for a new expressway into downtown, a lot of truly bone-headed infrastructure decisions could get funded as a result, and our suburban-dominated Council is exactly the group of clowns to do just that. I guess I believe we need to advocate directly for the infrastructure we need, rather than support glitzy and expensive projects of no long-term benefit in the hope that just once this city would get one infrastructure project right as a result.

 

[Tewder]

If I had any idea of how power works in this town, I'd try to build a consensus around building the infrastructure we need: specifically DRL.

First of all, I share your belief in the importance of the DRL. I'm on board with that. We need to get people moving in and out of the city and region, and within the city when here.

I understand that our municipal political class is really, really stupid, and that the only defensible Olympic argument is that we can't expect any level of government to fund anything sensible in Toronto without the kind of Stakhanovite push an Olympics would bring.

Well this is a big point, the key point in fact, for me at least. I don't believe it's the only defensible argument though, there are all the so-called intangibles. To my mind these offset some of olympics-specific spending that would need to happen... but yes, in the absence of some clear infrastructure and revitalization benefits for Toronto it would be difficult to support a bid.

Though as I note from Euphoria's support for a new expressway into downtown, a lot of truly bone-headed infrastructure decisions could get funded as a result, and our suburban-dominated Council is exactly the group of clowns to do just that. I guess I believe we need to advocate directly for the infrastructure we need, rather than support glitzy and expensive projects of no long-term benefit in the hope that just once this city would get one infrastructure project right as a result.

There has been advocacy for these things for decades now. What's going to change? What will be new and different that hasn't been tried before? What's going to make the difference? What's going to change the inertia, the divisiveness and politics that run so deep? It's certainly not in the cards any time soon and we are constantly at the mercy of shifting political winds. We need something that can transcend this. The one thing that did transcend this mess and effect some real change was the effect of having the PanAms. It cost money but it moved agendas forward. An olympics can do this too, on an even larger scale.

As for a suburban-dominated approach it won't help one bit if the olympics are sited downtown at the waterfront, and there would be absolutely zero tolerance/motivation for a car-centric approach to an event such as this in Toronto. Again, I think the PanAms demonstrated that this is the case.

 

[Euphoria]

Knock yourself out. If you bang on enough doors, you might get your branch-plant Google cubicle to help fill some of the unoccupied space at one of the MARS offices on University Ave. You're not getting a DRL, because you have no way to pay for it. An underground toll highway is a means that solves many problems at once: burying the Gardner, building a DRL, and reducing congestion. Let's hear your ideas. Do some research. We'll be lucky to get SmartTrac. By all means, start lobbying for a new downtown Waterloo campus. Good luck with that. Yup and those time-limited tax breaks will go a long way to incentivizing the provision of coffee trucks for the crews digging the hole for the next vacant health and education P3 research facility. I hear there's software in the works for the 3-d printing of Devil Dogs and Twinkies.

 

[Euphoria]

My point is that you're not going to get substantive change like entire new subway lines and big influxes of private R & D investment without creative, bold moves. I'm fiscally conservative and even I'm sick of hearing the tax-incentive solution to every problem. It's another call to erode the tax base while expecting to generate government revenue. Right now every level of government is tapped out. That's why we need to find other ways to fund infrastructure. If an Olympics is worth $2.9 billion dollars in private money, we need to think about it. If value added toll roads that take nothing away from the existing road network will provide revenue to fund transit, we need to think about that.

 

[salsa]

I'm fiscally conservative and even I'm sick of hearing the tax-incentive solution to every problem.

Like with most "fiscal conservatives", your love for tunnels and fanciful ideas for paying for them are about as out of touch with reality as Rob Ford's defunct private-sector subway plan. There's a reason why city staff keeps rejecting the Gardiner tunnel alternative: $2.5 billion just for 1 km of tunnel with long ramps at both ends. But somehow you think it's feasible to tunnel Allen Rd all the way downtown and have have it paid for entirely with tolls? Find me any city in the world who financed a multi-billion tunneled roadway like that and maybe you will be taken more seriously.

 

[Euphoria]

Please read about Paris's innovative toll tunnels: http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/a86/

"The A86 West Tunnel forms the final link of the 80km A86 ringroad around Greater Paris. Completed in January 2011, the tunnel allows the journey from Malmaison to Versailles to take only ten minutes, rather than 45 minutes.

At a cost of €2.2bn, the A86 West consists of two toll tunnels; one is an innovative 10km double-deck tunnel (duplex motorway) for light vehicles, the other, at 5.5km, is along more traditional lines with just a single deck designed for all vehicles including HGVs."

Where are the doers and dreamers?

 

[animatronic]

Please read about Paris's innovative toll tunnels: http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/a86/

"The A86 West Tunnel forms the final link of the 80km A86 ringroad around Greater Paris. Completed in January 2011, the tunnel allows the journey from Malmaison to Versailles to take only ten minutes, rather than 45 minutes.

At a cost of €2.2bn, the A86 West consists of two toll tunnels; one is an innovative 10km double-deck tunnel (duplex motorway) for light vehicles, the other, at 5.5km, is along more traditional lines with just a single deck designed for all vehicles including HGVs."

Where are the doers and dreamers?

It's amazing that they were able to pull that off without the Olympics.

 

[Euphoria]

Also note that the distance between Eglinton and Allen and Front and Spadina is under 9 km. Look, do I think the entire capital cost of DRL gets paid for this way? Maybe not, but surely it will cover a sizeable portion, probably the lion's share. What's more, you get an underground expressway out of the deal that, if integrated properly, can eventually replace the Gardner.