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Toronto 2024 Olympic Bid (Dead)

kkgg7 said:
You misunderstood me. I am not calling it a small comfortable town nobody cares, I am saying many people prefer it being like that. What I am implying is Toronto is not achieving its potential just because many people oppose change or refuse to embrace something bigger and grander.

Debt is an issue for only those who aren't capable of managing it and using it to their advantage. Public debt itself is not a bad thing. In fact it is a way to stimulate ecnomy if handled properly. Fearing it does no good.
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I'm with you on this comment. It seems everywhere we look lately Torontonians are happier with a small town esque city a la St Catherines or Collingwood rather than aspiring to be, or more specifically acting like, a world city. Toronto may never be an Alpha city like London, New York, or Tokyo, nor should it attempt to copy these cities, however we CAN take the best of these cities and make Toronto the best World Class city that Toronto can be. That includes building subways, LRT's, bidding on Olympics, hosting world class events, etc, etc.
 
Although there are reports that apparently spit out numbers regarding Olympic events, they're all BS.
As jn said it is impossible to calculate profits for these events.

And if any of you think the games played a big role in Greece's financial collapse only shows how little you know regarding the situation, finance in general, and Greece as a country.
The games did not cause this mess in Greece and barely contributed much to it.

johnwood said:
you can't forget what the olympics did to greece!:p
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You know not what you speak of.
 
jn_12 said:
I'm in favour of an Olympics but this is all BS. There is absolutely no way to measure profits/losses when it comes to an event like the Olympics. I have no clue where you're getting such precise numbers but I can assure you they're wrong.
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The numbers are released by the International Olypmic Committee (IOC). You can check them. I work in finance and I always look for publicly available numbers to support my arguments.
 
kkgg7 said:
The numbers are released by the International Olypmic Committee (IOC). You can check them. I work in finance and I always look for publicly available numbers to support my arguments.
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Doesn't mean they're right. Let's poke some holes:

No two Olympics are the same and every city uses them for a different reason. Some are willing to incur a loss as the price of hosting. If we're looking at something like public infrastructure improvements that coincide with an Olympics, do we include these in the profits/losses? If we build a subway line for the Olympics today and it starts making huge profits decades later, is that counted? What if that new stadium attracts a sports franchise? Is that taken into account? What about the various ways Olympics have an impact on municipal/provincial/federal taxes? Are these accurately measured and if so how can we compare them internationally? How about land values? How does anyone know if anything I or anyone else purchased during the Olympics can be directly attributed to hosting the Olympics? What about the long term effects of hosting an Olympics? If a venue is built for the Olympics and then 10 years later is used as a venue for a World Championship, is that factored in? How about the long term effects of tourism? If I watched the 2000 Olympics and became enamored by Sydney as a 15 year old, would the dollars spent on my visit there 15 years later be counted? How about multiplier effects? How about economic leakages? How about long term social/environmental costs? How about values that can't be immediately measured in dollars or aren't visible until years down the road such as the effects of grassroots funding of athletics on public health? How about the Olympics' effects on things like gas prices or the stock market? And so on.

You'd think someone with a background in finance would take all of that into account eh?
 
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jn_12 said:
Doesn't mean they're right. Let's poke some holes:

No two Olympics are the same and every city uses them for a different reason. Some are willing to incur a loss as the price of hosting. If we're looking at something like public infrastructure improvements that coincide with an Olympics, do we include these in the profits/losses? If we build a subway line for the Olympics today and it starts making huge profits decades later, is that counted? What if that new stadium attracts a sports franchise? Is that taken into account? What about the various ways Olympics have an impact on municipal/provincial/federal taxes? Are these accurately measured and if so how can we compare them internationally? How about land values? How does anyone know if anything I or anyone else purchased during the Olympics can be directly attributed to hosting the Olympics? What about the long term effects of hosting an Olympics? If a venue is built for the Olympics and then 10 years later is used as a venue for a World Championship, is that factored in? How about the long term effects of tourism? If I watched the 2000 Olympics and became enamored by Sydney as a 15 year old, would the dollars spent on my visit there 15 years later be counted? How about multiplier effects? How about economic leakages? How about long term social/environmental costs? How about values that can't be immediately measured in dollars or aren't visible until years down the road such as the effects of grassroots funding of athletics on public health? How about the Olympics' effects on things like gas prices or the stock market? And so on.

You'd think someone with a background in finance would take all of that into account eh?
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You should know any measurement in economic value is only a rough approximation at best. True the real benefits are probably impossibly to quantify, but that doesn't mean there is no way to compare them in a meaningful way at all.

Economists try to measure the economic benefit of public projects all the time, when the long term effects and multiplier effects are equally challenging to determine. They do with the best methodology and modeling at their disposal. Nothing is 100% accurate. It is not rock science, but we need these studies to guide our policies, otherwise you have reply on guts feeling?

I don't know what you are trying to prove. We should not hold Olympics because we can't guarantee for sure it will make money, or anyone ever has?
 
kkgg7 said:
You should know any measurement in economic value is only a rough approximation at best. True the real benefits are probably impossibly to quantify, but that doesn't mean there is no way to compare them in a meaningful way at all.

Economists try to measure the economic benefit of public projects all the time, when the long term effects and multiplier effects are equally challenging to determine. They do with the best methodology and modeling at their disposal. Nothing is 100% accurate. It is not rock science, but we need these studies to guide our policies, otherwise you have reply on guts feeling?

I don't know what you are trying to prove. We should not hold Olympics because we can't guarantee for sure it will make money, or anyone ever has?
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No, in fact I said the following:
jn_12 said:
I'm in favour of an Olympics but this is all BS. There is absolutely no way to measure profits/losses when it comes to an event like the Olympics. I have no clue where you're getting such precise numbers but I can assure you they're wrong.
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My point is that the numbers that are put out there by economists or organizers, or whoever are so far off-base that you can't look at economic losses and profits when it comes to hosting these events. Yet far too many people seem to like to do that.
 
jn_12 said:
No, in fact I said the following:


My point is that the numbers that are put out there by economists or organizers, or whoever are so far off-base that you can't look at economic losses and profits when it comes to hosting these events. Yet far too many people seem to like to do that.
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That I agree with actually. I used those numbers to show that Athens is an exception. We shouldn't make decision regarding this just because Greece did badly. In fact as someone correctly pointed out, the Olympics have little to do with Greece's current malaise.
 
Question to those that would know this better than I would but how much of the Portlands is left to be developed? Will there be enough space for a 2024 bid to put the Olympic Park there just like the 2008 bid proposed?
 
Depends on how quickly Portlands redevelopment get moved, but I doubt it can be implemented without some serious changes - the original plan counted on West Don Lands for the media village (which would no longer be available for such purposes in 2024); East Bayfront might be partially available, ditto Lower Don Lands - but the plan by MVVA envisions substantive changes in the course of the Don, which will preclude building the stadium at exactly the same spot as in the 2008 plan.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Depends on how quickly Portlands redevelopment get moved, but I doubt it can be implemented without some serious changes - the original plan counted on West Don Lands for the media village (which would no longer be available for such purposes in 2024); East Bayfront might be partially available, ditto Lower Don Lands - but the plan by MVVA envisions substantive changes in the course of the Don, which will preclude building the stadium at exactly the same spot as in the 2008 plan.

AoD
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have we not missed the deadline to bid for the olympics???
 
sixrings said:
have we not missed the deadline to bid for the olympics???
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If your referring to the 2020 games, then yes.

The 2024 Olympic race officially opens up in 2015.

This is the time table for the 2020 race. We can use this as a guide of what is due around what month. Toronto is definitely gonna bid for the Olympics right off the heels of the Pan Am Games in 2015. Perfect timing!

May 16, 2011 NOC's can submit names of applicant cities
Until July 29, 2011 Applicant Cities to inform IOC of alternate Games dates proposals
September 1, 2011 Deadline to confirm submission of applicant cities
February 15, 2012 Applicant file due
May 2012 Announcement of candidate shortlist
January 2013 Candidate file "bid books" due
March - April 2013 IOC Evaluation Commission visits
August 2013 Evaluation report published by IOC
September 7, 2013 Winner Announced at IOC Session - Buenos Aires, Argentina
 
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Toronto would have been a shoo-in for 2020. As always, Rob Ford is our misfortune.
 
Who cares if we get it? AFAIK, only the Americans in Los Angeles every figured out how not to lose money on the Games. Montreal was a disgrace, Toronto would likely be just as bad. Toronto should stick to building condos, that's all it's good for. As one American said, "a boring city of banks and fast-food restaurants."
P.S. Speaking of events, if Caribana (or whatever they call it now) is such a money-maker, why wouldn't the city pass the hat to businesses and ask them to pony-up the cost of the thing? Because the businesses know the money-making aspect is pure fiction.
 
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