Toronto 2024 Olympic Bid (Dead)

[TOareaFan]

What do you mean by the term 'equity' you keep putting in front of opera singer?

I believe the term refers to professional opera perfromers represented by their union and who are covered by a collective bargaining agreement that allows them to earn a living (sometimes a pretty good living) showcasing their craft/skills. Sorta like athletes covered by various CBAs in professional sports.

 

[MisterF]

The usual argument against government funding of professional sports is millionaire athletes. That's akin to arguing against funding an opera company because of Nickelback. Not all professional athletes are millionaires. Toronto Rock players have to work second jobs just to get by, and even CFL players mostly qualify as middle class.

As for white elephant stadiums, the Atlanta stadium was largely temporary and was designed to be repurposed for baseball after the Games with a much smaller capacity. And that's exactly what happened. It wasn't outrageously expensive either. Toronto has lots of options for future uses of a hypothetical Olympic stadium.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

As for white elephant stadiums, the Atlanta stadium was largely temporary and was designed to be repurposed for baseball after the Games with a much smaller capacity. And that's exactly what happened. It wasn't outrageously expensive either. Toronto has lots of options for future uses of a hypothetical Olympic stadium.

Your argument against my contention of that all stadiums built for Olympics are white elephants is Atlanta? Where they had the ugliest of all Olympic track & field stadiums, subsidized the local baseball team to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, and said team is now extorting a new stadium out of the good burghers?

That's as laughable as saying the big Owe isn't a white elephant, because they use it for things on occasion. Oh.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I will say this: SkyDome / Rogers Centre, because of its use for so many events a year, is arguably the least white elephant-ish of all these stadia, despite the $300M bath taken by the province. Sad, eh?

 

[TOareaFan]

That's as laughable as saying the big Owe isn't a white elephant, because they use it for things on occasion. Oh.

We must using different working definitions of white elephants.

Aside from its initial cost and all the architectural issues....operationally, Montreal's stadium does not qualify (IMO) as a white elephant. It has been well used in the 40 years since the Olympics. For 27 years it hosted baseball, has hosted many soccer games and was a full and vibrant CFL stadium for a while too (could argue it being too large for CFL any longer says more about the CFL than the stadium).

When pointing to unused Olympic venues around the world, I would think twice about aiming the finger at the Big O

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

We must using different working definitions of white elephants.

"An unwanted or financially burdensome possession, or a project that turns out to be of limited value: “The new office building turned out to be a white elephant once the company decided to move its headquarters.”"

You're going to say that the beyond-costly Stade Olympique, that was never finished nor worked as planned, and was a huge financial burden on the city of Montreal, was not a white elephant?

I will give you this -- it did host the Expos for a decent time, and baseball does fill a stadium more than most -- pace SkyDome. But I'm pretty certain that SO would be looked at by 99% of Canadians, Quebecois, or Montrealers as a white elephant.

 

[Tewder]

What do you mean by the term 'equity' you keep putting in front of opera singer? You'll note that I was responding to the post about 'professional athletes', who can make millions, and I don't believe their playpens nor the teams' owners should be subsidized by the non-ticket buying public.

To perform with Stratford or the COC etc. you must be a professional performer and a member of the Equity union, so by your analogy we shouldn't be funding these professional artistic companies either, ones that charge rather high prices for their tickets too. I'm just not seeing the glaring difference you insist is so clear.

Besides, in the context of an olympics professional athletes actually don't get paid for competing. Yes, countries often offer medal bonuses and there are many possibilities for private endorsements but these are byproducts of good performances only and are not imposed. The allure for the pro is the medal itself, the opportunity to represent one's nation and compete in an historic event... will Crosby ever personally top the Gold medal goal moment in Vancouver? Nah.

I'm not sure what your definition of 'white elephant' is, but here's Dictionary.com: "An unwanted or financially burdensome possession, or a project that turns out to be of limited value: “The new office building turned out to be awhite elephant once the company decided to move its headquarters.”"

Semantically the idea of uselessness has to be front and centre. The London stadium isn't useless if it is being repurposed... and most cities fund large stadiums so it's a bit churlish to single out this one.

I focus my outrage on the billion dollar track and field stadium and soon-to-be BioDome because they're easy targets, and you -- and all the other Olympic boosters -- will not engage on the $2,000,000,000 in security or the $2,000,000,000 in logistics that will also be spent on an Olympics (does it make your eyes glaze over more or less when I write the costs out with all the zeros, rather than using the short-form billion?)

Here's some basic math: if you spend a dollar to make two you're ahead of the game, right? You can add zeros here until carpel tunnel sets in but if the net benefits are greater you're still ahead of the game. Unfortunately the anti-gamers are willfully ignoring benefits... and let's not forget that the costs for Toronto are not the grand totals. Those will be shared by the province and the entire country. In this context it's a good deal for Toronto specifically, at the very least!

And -- again, for the umpteenth time -- I'm happy to pay for a reasonable professional sports ticket and even fund amateur sports through government revenue. I object to spending billions of public money on a corrupt two-week event.

Your point of view is all over the map. You don't like the IOC? Ok. Unfortunately it is their product, their brand and their history. It just happens to be THE product and the only one that counts. They get to call the shots. It's sort of the way the world works. You can take your ball cause you don't like the rules, refuse to play and go home but you'll be the lonely boy crying and sulking in your room while the rest of the world moves on.

 

[TOareaFan]

"An unwanted or financially burdensome possession, or a project that turns out to be of limited value: “The new office building turned out to be a white elephant once the company decided to move its headquarters.”"

You're going to say that the beyond-costly Stade Olympique, that was never finished nor worked as planned, and was a huge financial burden on the city of Montreal, was not a white elephant?

I will give you this -- it did host the Expos for a decent time, and baseball does fill a stadium more than most -- pace SkyDome. But I'm pretty certain that SO would be looked at by 99% of Canadians, Quebecois, or Montrealers as a white elephant.

My mother would be so proud....I finally made the the 1%.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

The London stadium isn't useless if it is being repurposed... and most cities fund large stadiums so it's a bit churlish to single out this one.

Here's some basic math: if you spend a dollar to make two you're ahead of the game, right? You can add zeros here until carpel tunnel sets in but if the net benefits are greater you're still ahead of the game. Unfortunately the anti-gamers are willfully ignoring benefits... and let's not forget that the costs for Toronto are not the grand totals. Those will be shared by the province and the entire country. In this context it's a good deal for Toronto specifically, at the very least!

Here's some basic math: if you spend a dollar to make two, YOU'RE NOT THE OLYMPICS GAMES, WHICH LOSE MONEY HAND OVER FIST.

I'll stop. You have no interest in listening. Thank you for explaining what you meant by 'equity opera singer', though. And you are correct: I wouldn't fund a professional opera singer in the same manner as I would a carded amateur athlete.

 

[MisterF]

Your argument against my contention of that all stadiums built for Olympics are white elephants is Atlanta? Where they had the ugliest of all Olympic track & field stadiums, subsidized the local baseball team to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, and said team is now extorting a new stadium out of the good burghers?

That's as laughable as saying the big Owe isn't a white elephant, because they use it for things on occasion. Oh.

Considering that Turner Field is used a minimum of 81 times a year for baseball alone and will be redeveloped after it's closed, it's the complete opposite of a white elephant. It has been very well used over the last 20 years and is a model of what's possible for an Olympic stadium. The Atlanta Braves moving has nothing whatsoever to do with the Olympics or the concept of downsizing an Olympic stadium after the Games. It has more to do with the stadium's location and the fact that sports teams in the US routinely find fickle reasons to move out of their stadiums for something shiny and new. Their other excuse is that the stadium needs work, but so does every stadium after 20 years.

A large part of the cost of every Olympics is paid for by the private sector. In Atlanta's case, the private sector paid for the venues, including the Olympic stadium. And those Olympics made a profit. So no, Atlanta's baseball team wasn't subsidized to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. A deal structured the same way in Toronto could see an Olympic stadium with temporary seats to later become home of the Blue Jays, Argos, and/or TFC, and paid for by Bell/Rogers/MLSE and any number of sponsors.

 

[animatronic]

Considering that Turner Field is used a minimum of 81 times a year for baseball alone and will be redeveloped after it's closed, it's the complete opposite of a white elephant. It has been very well used over the last 20 years and is a model of what's possible for an Olympic stadium. The Atlanta Braves moving has nothing whatsoever to do with the Olympics or the concept of downsizing an Olympic stadium after the Games. It has more to do with the stadium's location and the fact that sports teams in the US routinely find fickle reasons to move out of their stadiums for something shiny and new. Their other excuse is that the stadium needs work, but so does every stadium after 20 years.

A large part of the cost of every Olympics is paid for by the private sector. In Atlanta's case, the private sector paid for the venues, including the Olympic stadium. And those Olympics made a profit. So no, Atlanta's baseball team wasn't subsidized to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. A deal structured the same way in Toronto could see an Olympic stadium with temporary seats to later become home of the Blue Jays, Argos, and/or TFC, and paid for by Bell/Rogers/MLSE and any number of sponsors.

Yeah, Turner field was a shit Olympic Stadium and a shit Baseball Stadium. But nice try.

 

[salsa]

Yeah, Turner field was a shit Olympic Stadium and a shit Baseball Stadium. But nice try.

Call it what you want, but shit does not = white elephant.

 

[TOareaFan]

Call it what you want, but shit does not = white elephant.

correct...the old stadium at the Ex was horrible....but it was no white elephant....we saw a lot of use of that stadium.

 

[animatronic]

Call it what you want, but shit does not = white elephant.

I really have no idea what argument anyone is trying to make right now.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Call it what you want, but shit does not = white elephant.

Hahahaha... so, while following the Jays yesterday I looked up Turner Field. Given my own Dictionary.com definition of 'white elephant', the fact that the Atlanta Olympic Committee got NBC to build a stadium for TBS, which the baseball team has used for 20 years, this was definitely not a white elephant. It was a horrible Olympic stadium with egregiously bad sightlines (because it was a baseball field), but not a white elephant.

I stand corrected.

Every. Olympic. Stadium. Except. Atlanta. (tm)

The overhead view of the stadium in Olympic mode was hilarious.