Toronto 12° / 12 Degrees Condos | 35.66m | 11s | BSäR Group | Core Architects

VTB said:
Early 2014 completion is very remote.

I live in an area where many 11-13 storey buildings have popped up. Without having to dig underground, it would take about 2 years. With underground parking, add at least 6 months. And that is with the weather cooperating and not starting to dig in the winter.

So we're talking early 2015 if everything goes smoothly. Later if there are the typical hiccups in a construction project.

Also not particularly crazy about a rooftop pool in a small building. Less units to share the maintenance cost and the eventual repair cost.
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But not to worry, most people who have purchased these units can afford it. Money would not be an issue to them.
 
I really don't think you can speak on behalf of all the owners, or to their finances. Repairing these items can be expensive.
 
Pool Expense and Completion Estimate

Regarding the comment concerning the 11-14 storey buildings taking 2 years; I would suggest that is quite likely the case on a larger footprint or on a building that had a cost-overrun issue. However, that is highly unlikely on a project this size in the absence of a truly unforeseeable issue (i.e. not the normal course construction delay). I would be very surprised if this one is not ready for occupancy in 16-18 months. I sure hope not!

Regarding the pool, I have lived in a building with an outdoor pool for the past 10 years in the winter (Fla.) and it represents a very small portion of our condo's budget every year. This is in a building with only 130 units. These pools are not particularly expensive if they are designed right so that no special capital levys are requires. The developer has its first year budget in at under 0.50 per foot so that must be the case here too. Even with the usual year two increase I am sure that whomever bought will be more than happy spending a couple of hundred extra bucks a year for an asset that will represent tens of thousands on resale. I haven't seen a pool like the one proposed in a purely residential building in the city period; never mind one that is going to be far more private owing to the fact that there are not many owners here. Let's see if they build it as designed. If they do then this is a "no brainer" trade-off.
 
There will be some residents that will be shocked to experience the huge increase of maintenance fees after the first year. The average 50cents/sq.ft. that most developers are stating for their new construction condos are generally low to begin with, with or without amenities. The average for all condos in Toronto (new and old) is at 70 cents, of course there are many factors that could make the maintenance higher or lower than this.

Maintaining a pool here is different than Florida, where pools are used year round and they have a much warmer climate. Here they need to be drained and cleaned yearly and heating the pool is a big expense especially with our cooler evenings and off-peak seasons. 12 Degrees also has a roof top deck/lounge/bar amenity connected to this pool which is extremely luxurious and substantial for a building of that size. The insurance for a pool and also potential problems associated with it is not cheap either and will become more of an issue as the building ages.

There are a few purely residential condo buildings that have an outdoor pool amenity in the city (there are a couple in Cityplace and some near Lakeshore), but those serve 500 to almost 1000 units so the maintenance cost is spread over a much larger pool of people.

12 Degrees is a very nicely designed building with excellent amenities and generally speaking I'm sure most will enjoy the perks and will be willing to pay the premium maintenance fees that go along with it.
 
But then again these investors have the income to support it. These issues would not really be an issue for them.
 
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Affordable said:
But then again these investors have the income to support it. These issues would not really be an issue for them.
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In today's economy, I think it's safe to say that investors, as well as future residents, should be cognizant of their expenses, regardless of their incomes. A nice example of this is what is happening in the Trump Tower.....(i.e. Talon Industries suing several of their purchasers).

I'm sure the investors and potential residents of the 12 Degrees project are equally concerned about the expenses that are being directed towards their new homes/ investments, without regard for the tax-bracket they fall into.
 
Designerguy said:
Regarding the comment concerning the 11-14 storey buildings taking 2 years; I would suggest that is quite likely the case on a larger footprint or on a building that had a cost-overrun issue. However, that is highly unlikely on a project this size in the absence of a truly unforeseeable issue (i.e. not the normal course construction delay). I would be very surprised if this one is not ready for occupancy in 16-18 months. I sure hope not!

Regarding the pool, I have lived in a building with an outdoor pool for the past 10 years in the winter (Fla.) and it represents a very small portion of our condo's budget every year. This is in a building with only 130 units. These pools are not particularly expensive if they are designed right so that no special capital levys are requires. The developer has its first year budget in at under 0.50 per foot so that must be the case here too. Even with the usual year two increase I am sure that whomever bought will be more than happy spending a couple of hundred extra bucks a year for an asset that will represent tens of thousands on resale. I haven't seen a pool like the one proposed in a purely residential building in the city period; never mind one that is going to be far more private owing to the fact that there are not many owners here. Let's see if they build it as designed. If they do then this is a "no brainer" trade-off.
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I hope you're correct about the timeline, Designerguy. If my memory is correct, you work in this field, so, you are speaking from experience and expertise. That said, I have watched quite a few projects of a similar size in the general area (mostly in King West) that seem to take a little longer. But, let's keep our fingers crossed.

I do see activity at the site everyday, which is encouraging.
 
Designerguy said:
Regarding the comment concerning the 11-14 storey buildings taking 2 years; I would suggest that is quite likely the case on a larger footprint or on a building that had a cost-overrun issue. However, that is highly unlikely on a project this size in the absence of a truly unforeseeable issue (i.e. not the normal course construction delay). I would be very surprised if this one is not ready for occupancy in 16-18 months. I sure hope not!

Regarding the pool, I have lived in a building with an outdoor pool for the past 10 years in the winter (Fla.) and it represents a very small portion of our condo's budget every year. This is in a building with only 130 units. These pools are not particularly expensive if they are designed right so that no special capital levys are requires. The developer has its first year budget in at under 0.50 per foot so that must be the case here too. Even with the usual year two increase I am sure that whomever bought will be more than happy spending a couple of hundred extra bucks a year for an asset that will represent tens of thousands on resale. I haven't seen a pool like the one proposed in a purely residential building in the city period; never mind one that is going to be far more private owing to the fact that there are not many owners here. Let's see if they build it as designed. If they do then this is a "no brainer" trade-off.
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I agree. The cost of maintaining a pool is a minor expense compared to building one. Plus other monthly expenses such as 24 Hr Concierge (average $150k/year for 1 guard at a time) and hydro expenses for amenities in the common areas (parking, hallways, elevators) are larger financial constraints. With condo living increasing in popularity this area of concern has to be watched closer.
 
Pool Expense

If you look at the condo docs...... this is a seasonal pool that is larger, but not that much larger than a large pool in a luxury home on the Bridal Path or some area like that....divided over 100 units with, I assume, a modern salt water system, this is going to represent an insignificant addition to the CAM for the building. The reason why these pools do not get incorporated is that developers are concerned about the additional construction cost and the mess that 400 people on a roof in a lower end development full of renters might cause; it has nothing to do with maintenance fees. In a building like this and an area like this (few/boutique number of luxury units) , an outdoor pool is an absolute no-brainer if you ask me. I would pay for it all day long.





neuhaus said:
There will be some residents that will be shocked to experience the huge increase of maintenance fees after the first year. The average 50cents/sq.ft. that most developers are stating for their new construction condos are generally low to begin with, with or without amenities. The average for all condos in Toronto (new and old) is at 70 cents, of course there are many factors that could make the maintenance higher or lower than this.

Maintaining a pool here is different than Florida, where pools are used year round and they have a much warmer climate. Here they need to be drained and cleaned yearly and heating the pool is a big expense especially with our cooler evenings and off-peak seasons. 12 Degrees also has a roof top deck/lounge/bar amenity connected to this pool which is extremely luxurious and substantial for a building of that size. The insurance for a pool and also potential problems associated with it is not cheap either and will become more of an issue as the building ages.

There are a few purely residential condo buildings that have an outdoor pool amenity in the city (there are a couple in Cityplace and some near Lakeshore), but those serve 500 to almost 1000 units so the maintenance cost is spread over a much larger pool of people.

12 Degrees is a very nicely designed building with excellent amenities and generally speaking I'm sure most will enjoy the perks and will be willing to pay the premium maintenance fees that go along with it.
Click to expand...
 
Nov. 24th:

8213492027_5cefa764ce_b.jpg
 
Anyone know what's going on with this one? They started excavating after a long delay, got down about 3 meters and abruptly stopped. All the equipment is still there but no activity for the past 2 weeks or so. Long Christmas vacation?
 
I was down there yesterday and today during non-working hours, and from what I can see from the placement of the vehicles, there may have been some recent construction activity....:confused:
 
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