Toronto 100 Queens Quay at Sugar Wharf | 117.34m | 25s | Menkes | B+H

AlvinofDiaspar said:
Mongo:

I don't know - are there any extant examples of the province asking the city to modify its' zoning bylaw so that it can fetch a higher price for its' property? It sounds like a potentially problematical use of provincial authority to me.

AoD
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Not exactly the same but not long before the last election the Minister of Municipal Affairs did enact a Ministerial Zoning Order in Caledon. The town did not appear ready to allow the use of the land that a large commercial user (Canadian Tire) wanted so the Minister did it. I think the province has greater powers in planning and land use matters than we know (and that they typically use).
 
TOareaFan said:
Not exactly the same but not long before the last election the Minister of Municipal Affairs did enact a Ministerial Zoning Order in Caledon. The town did not appear ready to allow the use of the land that a large commercial user (Canadian Tire) wanted so the Minister did it. I think the province has greater powers in planning and land use matters than we know (and that they typically use).
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Oh the province does - but they are generally speaking very choosy about when they apply that power (rightly so).

AoD
 
CN Tower said:
This goes far beyond a couple hundred million dollars that will no doubt be squandered by the free spending Wynne government.
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CN Tower said:
LCBO HQ is a public asset. So here's a chance for the public to get back something ever lasting and not simply $250 million for the careless politicos of the day to squander on Samsung Windmill farms.
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The money received from the sale will be directed towards the Trillium Trust, which will fund a variety of transit and road infrastructure projects throughout Ontario (source). But please, carry on with your blind, irrational and ideological rant against the Wynne government.
 
Salsa: well played.

I am not sure if calling for greater governmental intervention/oversight for such a potentially massive redevelopment is any sort of guarantee that money won't be squandered and related bureaucracies permitted to bloat and misspend. Look at the silliness of the Miller administration with its approach to food carts. Well meaning? Perhaps. Epic in its failure? Pretty much.
 
I, too, have to wonder if the Trillium Trust contribution will see a proportional level of spending/investment in Toronto courtesy of that deposit? Will the success of Toronto and the associated property valuations, will any of that investment make its way here?
 
Lenser said:
Salsa: well played.

I am not sure if calling for greater governmental intervention/oversight for such a potentially massive redevelopment is any sort of guarantee that money won't be squandered and related bureaucracies permitted to bloat and misspend.
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I don't disagree with more oversight, but CN Tower's argument lost its credibility by suggesting that the proceeds from the sale "will no doubt" be spent on windmills by the "free spending Wynne government".
 
salsa said:
I don't disagree with more oversight, but CN Tower's argument lost its credibility by suggesting that the proceeds from the sale "will no doubt" be spent on windmills by the "free spending Wynne government".
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The current government's fiscal irresponsibility is an epic failure of the public trust. They have zero accountability, zero regard for future generations of debt burden, zero ability to manage public assets.

So the less money in their pocket to squander the better off we all are.

Your Trillium Trust point is meaningless. They will just blow the money somewhere else.
 
CN Tower said:
The current government's fiscal irresponsibility is an epic failure of the public trust. They have zero accountability, zero regard for future generations of debt burden, zero ability to manage public assets.

So the less money in their pocket to squander the better off we all are.

Your Trillium Trust point is meaningless. They will just blow the money somewhere else.
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Kind of OT but to put it into perspective - just what did we get from the 407 sale, which btw netted over 10 times the projected income from this piece of land?

AoD
 
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
Kind of OT but to put it into perspective - just what did we get from the 407 sale, which btw netted over 10 times the projected income from this piece of land?

AoD
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It is off topic but since a Mod took us there.....some rough calcs....what was the sale price $3.1B? So that year the province borrowed $3.1B less....so, since then, our net debt is $3.1B less than it otherwise would have been. Don't have time to research what the Ontario government was borrowing at in 1999 but lets just say that it was 4%....then our interest costs per year are down $124million per year. So in the 15 years since then that sale has would have saved us $1.86B in interest costs.

Now, the fact that government(s) continued to borrow and increase our debt is a bit irrelevant....that year we added $3.1B less to our accumulated debt so it is money we did not have to borrow......and if we had borrowed our debt total today would be $3.1B higher.

Whether this is a net benefit or not is a much, much, more complicated calculation.....you would have to figure out how much we would have lost in the 15 years in tolls on the road as it existed then...and if you are going to just take the 407s revenue numbers over the 15 years into the calculation you also have to include the cost of the massive expansion of the road that has taken place since it went into private hands.*

Edit: *as of March 407 had outstanding long term debt (in the form of bonds) of about $6.2B. Against this their EBITDA was about $675 million.
 
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Another way to look at it is - the taxpayers of Ontario (really the GTA) paid for the construction of a superhighway across the top of the city.

The province then sold that highway to a consortium.

The taxpayers of Ontario (GTA) did not get any of the proceeds from that sale however they do have to pay through the nose to use the highway they originally paid to Build.

Whether or not we in the GTA saved some money on interest is irrelevant as we certainly forked it over in exorbitant ETR fees.

End of the day the taxpayer loses.

The ETR is simply a disguised tax on the GTA.
 
Big Daddy said:
Another way to look at it is - the taxpayers of Ontario (really the GTA) paid for the construction of a superhighway across the top of the city.

The province then sold that highway to a consortium.

The taxpayers of Ontario (GTA) did not get any of the proceeds from that sale however they do have to pay through the nose to use the highway they originally paid to Build.

Whether or not we in the GTA saved some money on interest is irrelevant as we certainly forked it over in exorbitant ETR fees.

End of the day the taxpayer loses.

The ETR is simply a disguised tax on the GTA.
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The tolls are irrelevant in the calc I did.....it was built as a government owned toll road...so the users were always going to pay them. The province built a road and sold it for $3.1B....the $3.1B would have reduced the debt accumulated that year.
 
Big Daddy said:
Whether or not we in the GTA saved some money on interest is irrelevant as we certainly forked it over in exorbitant ETR fees.

End of the day the taxpayer loses.

The ETR is simply a disguised tax on the GTA.
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Tax payers didn't lose. Drivers who use 407 lose.
Not many people actually need to use the 407 frequently, so to say it is a disguised tax is inaccurate.

TOareaFan said:
The tolls are irrelevant in the calc I did.....it was built as a government owned toll road...so the users were always going to pay them. The province built a road and sold it for $3.1B....the $3.1B would have reduced the debt accumulated that year.
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It saves interest on debt each year afterwards, which is $15 million dollars a year.
 
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The province technically can do whatever it wants on the municipal level, thus you see things like amalgamation being forced on Toronto.

If the province wanted to, they could completely eliminate municipalities. Municipalities are under the provinces control, so yes, the province could easily rezone the land and the city wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
 
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