Toll Roads

[sjc]

>>>If it were free, the 407 would be congested now.<<<

If it were free, it wouldn't exist. "Proposed 407" started showing up on maps back in the 70s (or at least the 80s - my memory is foggy that far back), but the project went nowhere.

When they decided to go the private-sector toll route, the 407 appeared like magic in very little time.

 

[cacruden]

I was reading some sporadic chatter about tolling some of Toronto's highways in numerous threads over the past few months and since I couldn't find any previous threads on the topic, I thought it would be a good idea to concentrate this debate into one thread.

It's assumed that any revenues tolling of municipal roadways would go directly toward funding regional transit initiatives. There is also no reason why tolls should not be electronic as the technology exists, and toll booths would cause congestion.

Questions for discussion:

-If you are opposed to tolling Toronto's highways, why?

-Should we go with the system used by the 407 ETR, the EZ Pass system or make transponders and receivers compatible with both?

-Which roads should be tolled? (not just limited to municipal expressways.)

-Fixed rate or variable based on congestion or type of vehicle?

I think tolling all major highways regardless of whether they are federal, provincial or municipal would be a good idea. Ontario should issue new license-plates that are toll-friendly (i.e. transponder/RFID). They should also move towards a universal card that can be used for parking, transit, and road tolls (I think Singapore is moving this way - I know road tolls and parking get dinged from the same card).

Eventually highway toll system should be variable, i.e. the heavier the traffic the higher the tolls, less traffic - lower tolls... and all tolls get reinvested back in (minus the profit margin to the government of maybe 15%) into highway upkeep/upgrade. Whether or not it is private or public - the highways should be run like a private company (maybe crown corporation - with an independent board).

Fuel taxes would then be used for transit.

When I was in Japan, I went with a friend to another city 2 hours a way (and back) [Miyakonojo - Kimamoto] and the road tolls totalled around $100CAD (fuel was around 104Yen / litre - a month ago). It was definately an expensive highway to build so the tolls were probably in line with the cost of construction (tunnel after tunnel - 30+ shortest 100+ metres - longest 6km).

 

[dunkalunk]

If it were free, the 407 would be congested now. No freeway really relieves congestion, it just adds capacity.

A toll highway operator isn't out there to relieve congestion. They're a business. They're in it to make money.

Which is what I was getting at. Because of the 407's toll structure, it would be very difficult to approve applying a higher toll to the 401. Both highways would be tolled, but the 401 would be tolled higher based on congestion.

One thing that I'm surprised not to have heard yet is any reaction regarding increased traffic on arterials in the driver's quest to avoid having to pay a toll. I can only really see this mitigated if Toronto applies a congestion charge to anything south of the 401 and east of the 427, but you know people are going to be up in arms about that.

 

[cacruden]

^They should move that way step by step, where everywhere is tolled (new traffic lights everywhere ).... so if you get off a long distance on local streets - you get tolled more

 

[TKTKTK]

One thing that I'm surprised not to have heard yet is any reaction regarding increased traffic on arterials in the driver's quest to avoid having to pay a toll. I can only really see this mitigated if Toronto applies a congestion charge to anything south of the 401 and east of the 427, but you know people are going to be up in arms about that.

The idea of road tolls in Toronto is far-fetched enough (thankfully) that there's no point in going to the extra step in imagining congestion charges.

Revenue collected from cars and drivers (Fuel tax, highway tolls) should be going to funding the infrastructure they use - which is in a terrible, terrible state. Car drivers are not a transit subsidy.

The one car-culture benefit I can see with road tolls (beyond the promise of smooth asphalt) is that it'll rekindle an interest in side-roads and parallel routes.

 

[cacruden]

The fact that fuel taxes seem to be a mish-mash of uses, is why I think the a direct roads usage toll would be useful (tax on fuel is variable based on efficiency - which is more of a general revenue tax - or a "environmental" carbon tax - or even a behavioural modification tax).

If you move roads into a crown corporation, and toll users of the roads - which is run like any business - with the majority plowed back into the development of roads - there is a direct connection.

If fuel taxes only purpose was to fund roads, then the tax would be eliminated - and only GST/PST would be collected. Of course if the government were basing taxes on carbon standards - then you could add back a carbon tax into the fuel sales as well. Additionally, if the the fuel tax were used for transit (which should not be necessary if the tolls do their job), then you could add a "transit levy" for areas where your have large urban populations (not province-wide since some areas have no transit).

 

[cacruden]

^ This model would then allow up to date business reports on road usage, cost etc, and tolls adjusted to remain profitable on the business.

 

[lead82]

I think tolling the existing roads would put a huge disincentive on travel within the GTA. Many people rely on the highways to get to/from work or to conduct business within the GTA. Putting tolls on these roads would be completely irresponsible given that our transit system is incapable of offering an alternative.

Cities like London, New York, Stockholm are freely able to add tolls because their transit system is superior and provided a more than adequate alternative to driving.

In Toronto, you would have a revolt if the 401, DVP, Gardiner were tolled. What are people supposed to take instead?

GO transit is full, and only useful to Union station. TTC subway is full in rush hour, Yonge line is beyond capacity. Spadina has some capacity but not that much. B-D line is very full as well. However, the subway is not for everyone, and again is focused only on downtown.

Buses and streetcars are too slow and are inconvenient. Also, with highways tolled, arterials would be more congested, making these options even more inconvenient and slower.

My point is this. The GTA should not even consider levying one penny of tolls on the highways until a proper transit system is built. Governments should take up debts to fund projects and tolls should be used to help pay for them. When we have all-day bi-directional GO service in a web around the city, a much better subway and LRT system, then we can toll the highways.

I would prefer that governments raise gas taxes in the GTA to help pay for transit improvements rather than charge tolls on highways. The main problem is that money is not used properly by the government. It is colossally wasted on political pet projects that don't to much for the system. There are more than enough tax revenue to go around. The problem is colossal waste by all levels of governments, caused by slow and incapable processes that are constantly delayed.

We have not made any real transit improvements since the 1970's people. The region's population has doubled in size, yet transit capacity is only marginally higher.

Built it first, then toll it. That's the best approach IMO.

 

[Whoaccio]

My point is this. The GTA should not even consider levying one penny of tolls on the highways until a proper transit system is built. Governments should take up debts to fund projects and tolls should be used to help pay for them. When we have all-day bi-directional GO service in a web around the city, a much better subway and LRT system, then we can toll the highways.

This isn't economically optimal. Imagine a hypothetical service, if the company offered its product at zero cost to the consumer, would there be adequate supply? No. If the cost to provide the product is more than the revenue it brings in, there will always be a shortage. As it relates to highways this translate directly into congestion, which costs the GTA economy billions of dollars per year. This is the direct result of the economic inefficiencies of free roads.

 

[TKTKTK]

This isn't economically optimal. Imagine a hypothetical service, if the company offered its product at zero cost to the consumer, would there be adequate supply? No. If the cost to provide the product is more than the revenue it brings in, there will always be a shortage. As it relates to highways this translate directly into congestion, which costs the GTA economy billions of dollars per year. This is the direct result of the economic inefficiencies of free roads.

Yes but those arguments always ignore the increasingly huge and ongoing cost of car ownership. Driving a car is not a free exercise. Just because a road opens up does not mean cars appear in everyone's driveway. I'm skeptical that highway tolls will actually reduce the number of cars on our roads. Though they'll certainly reduce the amount of money people have left.

 

[toraerach]

GO transit is full, and only useful to Union station. TTC subway is full in rush hour, Yonge line is beyond capacity. Spadina has some capacity but not that much. B-D line is very full as well. However, the subway is not for everyone, and again is focused only on downtown.

I don't think highways should be tolled unless there is a viable transit alternative, yes, but I don't see that as being as far off as others here. For example, half-hourly service is coming to the Lakeshore GO line this year. Since the QEW/Gardiner services the same corridor, I think there will be the service there and tolling should begin along that route. When tolling begins, I don't think it should be relatively cheap to begin with. This will help people get used to paying a toll, even if it's not that significant. Over time, and as better transit service becomes available, the toll should go up at a higher rate than inflation. Congestion tolls could and should also be implemented. Once better GO service reaches other areas over the next few years, tolls can be added to the highways serving those areas.

You have to keep in mind that tolls aren't unheard of in North America. They aren't found solely in cities with good public transit systems either. Just off the top of my head, most of Orlando's highways are tolled even though their public transit situation leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[dunkalunk]

The true cost of driving needs to be addressed somehow. The path that we are on in not sustainable. The 401 is pretty much maxed out as are the Gardiner and DVP. Money talks. People aren't going to shift to different modes of transit unless they are forced to by higher monetary costs. Taxing parking spaces is another way of doing this.

A lot of this boils down to the way people live. In suburban communities, there is no practical mode of transport except for the private auto. See: End of Suburbia Yes, tolling roads may make it more expensive to live in suburbia and to own a car, even prohibitively expensive for some. People will need to change the way they live.

We also need to be seriously working on making transit improvements a reality. I hope this will come from the metrolinx shakeup and in a timely manner.

But for the urban health and future viability of Toronto, tolls are necessary.

EDIT: agree with lesouris

 

[TKTKTK]

The true cost of driving needs to be addressed somehow. The path that we are on in not sustainable. The 401 is pretty much maxed out as are the Gardiner and DVP. Money talks. People aren't going to shift to different modes of transit unless they are forced to by higher monetary costs. Taxing parking spaces is another way of doing this.

That's crap though! Public transit is already far cheaper than owning and operating a car on a daily basis. The reason people don't choose it, now, is because it isn't at all convenient, or isn't at all going where they need to go. Making driving more expensive does nothing to address that. Nothing at all.

If you give people attractive alternatives, that are also cheaper, than you don't have to lie or manipulate them into switching their habits.

The anti-car lobby is just as shrill and short-sighted as the car-lobby itself was in the 20th Century - and the suggestions they're making are just as destructive.

 

[Glen]

This isn't economically optimal. Imagine a hypothetical service, if the company offered its product at zero cost to the consumer, would there be adequate supply? No. If the cost to provide the product is more than the revenue it brings in, there will always be a shortage. As it relates to highways this translate directly into congestion, which costs the GTA economy billions of dollars per year. This is the direct result of the economic inefficiencies of free roads.

You are conveniently ignoring that fact that in the current scenario we are both the company offering the product and the consumer. We pay the price, indirect as at may be, and enjoy the benefit.

 

[Glen]

The true cost of driving needs to be addressed somehow. The path that we are on in not sustainable.

What about the true cost of public transit? Are we to ignore the true cost of that?