Time Zones and Daylight Savings

[DSC]

Quebec and Ontario are in favour and now the US Federal Govt MAY be approving it too! (Then each State wanting a change would need to do so too.)

WASHINGTON, March 15 (Reuters) - The U.S. Senate on Tuesday passed legislation that would make daylight saving time permanent starting in 2023, ending the twice-annual changing of clocks in a move promoted by supporters advocating brighter afternoons and more economic activity.

The Senate approved the measure, called the Sunshine Protection Act, unanimously by voice vote. The House of Representatives, which has held a committee hearing on the matter, still must pass the bill before it can go to President Joe Biden to sign. The White House has not said whether Biden supports it.

Here is info on Ontario. In Nov. 2020, Ontario passed legislation that would end the bi-annual changing of the clock, making daylight saving time permanent in the province.

Although the bill has received royal assent, it has yet to be proclaimed into force by the Lieutenant Governor. This will only happen if both New York and Quebec make the same change.

Quebec has not, AFIK, passed a similar Bill but this week "an aide to Legualt explained that the government isn’t opposed in principle to making DST permanent year-round. But, he said, they’d need “our neighbouring provinces” to make the change, too." (See: https://globalnews.ca/news/7439865/quebec-ontario-new-york-dst/)

From same article NY State seems to be moving, maybe. "A New York state senator, Republican Joe Griffo, recently introduced a bill that would make DST permanent in the Empire State. It’s unclear whether it has support from Democrats, who control a majority in both houses of the state’s legislature, as well as the governor’s mansion.

Even if New York did pass a law mandating year-round DST, it couldn’t take effect right away. That’s because the U.S. Congress would have to change American federal law regulating the use of time zones. Right now, it’s not legal for a state to stay in Daylight time all year."

 

[SubHuman]

"Sunshine Protection Act" ? More pointlessly silly terminology. It's just about shifting the time our clocks read. Daylight or sunshine cannot be protected or saved.

 

[Northern Light]

"Sunshine Protection Act" ? More pointlessly silly terminology.

I agree, its silly nomenclature.

It's just about shifting the time our clocks read. Daylight or sunshine cannot be protected or saved.

While this is also true, sunlight can be made more accessible. By which I mean, if daylight at 7:30am in winter is largely spent in one's shower, or commuting; shifting forward one hour doesn't really diminish access to sunlight much in the morning. But adding that hour that gets you from 5pm to 6pm in the winter or even to 7pm around the current clock-change dates, creates much more usable time for a walk, or patio visit, or just appreciating the daylight on one's leisure time from a window.

I think the idea of year-round DST is a sensible one that on balance benefits most people. Its nothing miraculous and shouldn't have its virtues overstated, but I don't see a material reason not to do it; and I do see benefits of it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

In the USA, some schools have a 7:30 AM starting time. They had better move to a later starting time, else the kids will be walking (insert laugh track here) to school in the dark.

Of course, if any school is located above the Arctic Circle, the sun will almost never rise around the winter solstice; before, during, and after December 21±.

 

[lenaitch]

I agree, its silly nomenclature.



While this is also true, sunlight can be made more accessible. By which I mean, if daylight at 7:30am in winter is largely spent in one's shower, or commuting; shifting forward one hour doesn't really diminish access to sunlight much in the morning. But adding that hour that gets you from 5pm to 6pm in the winter or even to 7pm around the current clock-change dates, creates much more usable time for a walk, or patio visit, or just appreciating the daylight on one's leisure time from a window.

I think the idea of year-round DST is a sensible one that on balance benefits most people. Its nothing miraculous and shouldn't have its virtues overstated, but I don't see a material reason not to do it; and I do see benefits of it.

But if Daylight Savings Time become the standard, does it not become Standard Time (if a tree falls in the forest . . . )?

 

[SubHuman]

But if Daylight Savings Time become the standard, does it not become Standard Time (if a tree falls in the forest . . . )?

Yes. As pointed out earlier in this thread, we (in Toronto, etc.) would be on Atlantic Standard Time all year, although I suppose we could call it any name we wanted.
It would be similar to Saskatchewan being on Central Standard Time, despite being geographically more aligned with the Mountain Time Zone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Saskatchewan#/media/File:Timezoneswest.PNG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Saskatchewan

Saskatchewan is geographically located in the Mountain Time Zone (GMT−07:00). However, most of the province observes Central Standard Time (CST) (GMT−06:00) year-round. As a result, it is effectively on daylight saving time (DST) year-round

"The time in Saskatchewan? Uh, I'd say about 1965?"

If it doesn't matter that the sun is directly above at noon (or very close to it), then why doesn't the whole world just switch to GMT.

I think a major problem with that would be the day would change at an inconvenient point in much of the world. The switch (from Monday to Tuesday, for example) would happen here early in the evening, late in their afternoon on the west coast, middle of the afternoon in Hawaii, and near midday in New Zealand. The New Year's Eve fireworks wouldn't show up very well there.
If and when a new Concorde-like supersonic airliner started flying, people would not be able to do this again to have more than one midnight on New Year's Eve.

... depart Paris at 30 minutes after midnight on Jan. 1, 2000 and arrive at JFK International Airport at 9:55 pm on Dec. 31, 1999. Passengers will be transferred by helicopter or coach to Manhattan, in time to see the ball drop in New York's famous Times Square.

 

[SubHuman]

... The Senate approved the measure, called the Sunshine Protection Act, unanimously by voice vote...
" ... the U.S. Congress would have to change American federal law ..."

It looks like they're going to try again to get it passed.
It's become clear that almost everyone agrees that changing the clocks twice a year is ridiculous and should be stopped. But like Ontario, they don't want to go first on their own and are waiting for others to agree to stop doing it at the same time.

And most prefer to stay year-round on the time we use for eight months a year through summer. Some don't like the idea of the sun not rising until about 8:50 a.m. (here in GTA, varies by location of course) in late December and early January, but most of us want that over darkness before 5 p.m.
Kids having to travel to school in darkness is a legitimate concern, but as pointed out previously is more easily addressed by simply having schools start their days slightly later (maybe 9:30 a.m. instead of 9) than strangely making clocks change twice every year.

 

[W. K. Lis]

It looks like they're going to try again to get it passed.
It's become clear that almost everyone agrees that changing the clocks twice a year is ridiculous and should be stopped, but like Ontario, don't want to go first and are waiting for others to agree to stop doing it at the same time.

And most prefer to stay year-round on the time we use for eight months a year through summer. Some don't like the idea of the sun not rising until about 8:50 a.m. (here in GTA, varies by location of course), but most of us want that over darkness before 5 p.m.
Kids having to travel to school in darkness is a legitimate concern, but as pointed out previously is more easily addressed by simply having schools start their days slightly later (maybe 9:30 a.m. instead of 9) than strangely making clocks change twice every year.

Having the streets around elementary schools zoned AND designed for 30 km/h speeds or less, along with brighter street lightning would help in that circumstance. High school students are better off with a later start, since most get up later (biology speaking).

 

[lenaitch]

It looks like they're going to try again to get it passed.
It's become clear that almost everyone agrees that changing the clocks twice a year is ridiculous and should be stopped. But like Ontario, they don't want to go first on their own and are waiting for others to agree to stop doing it at the same time.

And most prefer to stay year-round on the time we use for eight months a year through summer. Some don't like the idea of the sun not rising until about 8:50 a.m. (here in GTA, varies by location of course) in late December and early January, but most of us want that over darkness before 5 p.m.
Kids having to travel to school in darkness is a legitimate concern, but as pointed out previously is more easily addressed by simply having schools start their days slightly later (maybe 9:30 a.m. instead of 9) than strangely making clocks change twice every year.

There's a lot of that already happening. I don't know if it is a matter of school scheduling or trying to maximize school bus fleets, or perhaps both, but we have a bus that does a pick-up at our corner around 9:15am.

Having the streets around elementary schools zoned AND designed for 30 km/h speeds or less, along with brighter street lightning would help in that circumstance. High school students are better off with a later start, since most get up later (biology speaking).

It's not just urban streets, although that is an issue. Kids are standing out on unlit rural roads, including provincial highways. The degree of concern increases as you move north. It will be a concern on one end of the day or the other in deep winter; it's a function of available daylight and length of the school day (including any pre or post extra curricular).

 

[Lennox970]

"Sunshine Protection Act" ? More pointlessly silly terminology. It's just about shifting the time our clocks read. Daylight or sunshine cannot be protected or saved.

Really??

 

[SubHuman]

... Here is info on Ontario. In Nov. 2020, Ontario passed legislation that would end the bi-annual changing of the clock, making daylight saving time permanent in the province.

Although the bill has received royal assent, it has yet to be proclaimed into force by the Lieutenant Governor. This will only happen if both New York and Quebec make the same change...

We've been waiting for more than three years. (B.C. also passed a similar bill.) Maybe Ontario should just do it anyway on our own. It might encourage the neighbouring jurisdictions to follow, and if they don't, would it really be a huge problem? Some people who cross the border for work at places like Fort Erie, Ottawa, etc., might complain about being out of sync, but suck it up and learn to adjust for four months a year. Airlines with flights to and from other continents have always dealt with it, and so have a lot of average people who watch sports events on The Internet from overseas.
Edit: It's not that difficult to keep track of time zones in different locations with smartphones.

 

[Towered]

We've been waiting for more than three years. Maybe Ontario should just do it anyway on our own. It might encourage the neighbouring jurisdictions to follow, and if they don't, would it really be a huge problem? Some people who cross the border for work at places like Fort Erie, Ottawa, etc., might complain about being out of sync, but suck it up and learn to adjust for a few months a year. Airlines with flights to and from other continents have always dealt with it, and so have a lot of average people who watch sports events on The Internet from overseas.

It's classic politics - announce tons of proposals but don't actually follow through, or take an unreasonably long time to do so. Seeing this over and over for decades now has put me off enough that I'm actually detached from the voting process.

And you make a good point - in this case, why can't Ontario be a leader for once, instead of waiting for New York and Michigan to take the initiative? That's an unflattering aspect of Canadian culture - we're risk averse laggards who only implement new ideas and changes once we see that they've been done elsewhere. It's very unmotivating.

 

[DSC]

It's classic politics - announce tons of proposals but don't actually follow through, or take an unreasonably long time to do so. Seeing this over and over for decades now has put me off enough that I'm actually detached from the voting process.

And you make a good point - in this case, why can't Ontario be a leader for once, instead of waiting for New York and Michigan to take the initiative? That's an unflattering aspect of Canadian culture - we're risk averse laggards who only implement new ideas and changes once we see that they've been done elsewhere. It's very unmotivating.

Though I would prefer no time changes, there are lots of people here who interact with folk in NY or Montreal all day and being on THEIR schedule IS important. I will be amazed if Ontario 'goes it alone' - we (not me!) need to be on same time as either NYC or Montreal (or, better yet, both).

 

[DirectionNorth]

We've been waiting for more than three years. Maybe Ontario should just do it anyway on our own. It might encourage the neighbouring jurisdictions to follow, and if they don't, would it really be a huge problem? Some people who cross the border for work at places like Fort Erie, Ottawa, etc., might complain about being out of sync, but suck it up and learn to adjust for four months a year. Airlines with flights to and from other continents have always dealt with it, and so have a lot of average people who watch sports events on The Internet from overseas.
Edit: It's not that difficult to keep track of time zones in different locations with smartphones.
View attachment 546934

This post is obviously written by someone who has only ever lived in Toronto their entire life.

There is very significant cross-border commuting in Ottawa. A timezone change would be a massive headache for the province's second largest city (something like 5% of that city works in QC; Gatineau has something like 25% of their population employed in ON). Windsor and Niagara would also be problems, though to a lesser extent.

DST is a pain in the arse and a hassle for sure, but imposing a different timezone multiple months of the year would be no less burdensome.

 

[lenaitch]

This post is obviously written by someone who has only ever lived in Toronto their entire life.

There is very significant cross-border commuting in Ottawa. A timezone change would be a massive headache for the province's second largest city (something like 5% of that city works in QC; Gatineau has something like 25% of their population employed in ON). Windsor and Niagara would also be problems, though to a lesser extent.

DST is a pain in the arse and a hassle for sure, but imposing a different timezone multiple months of the year would be no less burdensome.

Approximately 72,000 cross between Ottawa and Gatineau daily according to this 2019 draft official plan. Not to mention federal government offices split between both sides of the river.

https://ehq-production-canada.s3.ca-central-1.amazonaws.com/02b425adee3b00d4c5ada2563c143fce138ff1b3/original/1625062246/288a02dbcbee968499f93382b4135dc1_op_discuss_paper_ott_gat_en.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIA4KKNQAKIOR7VAOP4%2F20240309%2Fca-central-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240309T034012Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=cfda6d5b49a3d615252559c2af519da957c7c463515ff23df47cdbdfce0eebe6

According to these folks, approximately 40,000 commute between Windsor and Detroit.

Crossing Made Easy - Tourism Windsor Essex Pelee Island

DID YOU KNOW THE WINDSOR-DETROIT BORDER IS THE BUSIEST INTERNATIONAL CROSSING IN NORTH AMERICA? Typically more than 40,000...

www.visitwindsoressex.com

If there is one constant about time change, it guarantees a repetitive debate twice a year.